Recorded at Lonsdale Street Studio
Host: Ben Alexander
Guests: Dr Joanna Wall Tweedie, Dr Andrew Flood and Dr Annaleise Naylor

Ben Alexander:
Welcome to the R4R pod.

A couple of years ago, when Breeny announced our goal of a suicide-free ACT by 2033, it was like a 10-year goal. A couple of months after that, a few of us did a thought exercise and we were like, “All right, so it’s a 10-year goal, but what if we had a gun to our head and we had to get it done in six months?”

And we had an idea. We thought, this exercising with friends caper is pretty good. What if we got some academic research done on it, got a bit of credibility around it, and then tried to get media on the findings? That was kind of our idea.

But anyway, fast forward a couple of years. Canberra is not suicide-free, so there is still a lot of work to go. But we have had some research done on R4R, and how that came about we’ll explain later.

To discuss Research for Resilience, I have Dr Annaleise Naylor, Dr Andrew Flood and Dr Joanna Wall Tweedie. Welcome to the R4R pod, guys.

Dr Joanna Wall Tweedie:
Thanks. Exciting to be here.

Dr Andrew Flood:
Yeah, very excited to be here.

Dr Annaleise Naylor:
Thank you.

Ben:
Awesome. So, just for the listeners, we’ll go around the horn. We’ll start with you first, Professor Jo.

Joanna:
Just Jo.

Ben:
Sorry. My dad’s a professor. He makes me call him Professor D. Just paying respect to the titles.

But yeah, Jo, what is your background? What do you normally study?

Joanna:
Sure. No problem. My expertise, my background.

Like Annaleise and Andrew, I’m a researcher at the University of Canberra’s Research Institute for Sport and Exercise. I teach into the discipline of sport and exercise. I also hold a position at Florida State University, where I supervise research and teach as well.

That’s where I got my PhD, and my PhD was actually around sports consumer psychology. So I studied fandom behaviour in sports fans and the connection that they have with sport.

But prior to that, I was actually a physiotherapist. So my research cuts across a few different areas. That background makes some sense of it. I’ll let the others introduce themselves, and I’m excited to be talking about this work.

Ben:
Andrew?

Andrew:
Thanks.

Ben:
Dr Flood. Sorry.

Andrew:
No, please. Andrew is fine.

I like how when Jo talks about Florida State, she puts a slight American accent on. Did anyone else hear that?

Ben:
The Gators?

Joanna:
What?

Ben:
Oh, Seminoles. Seminoles.

Andrew:
Yes. So, I’m at the University of Canberra Research Institute for Sport and Exercise, but also in the discipline of psychology. I teach in the undergraduate program, but my research has mostly looked at neuropsychology and pain.

We’ve looked at how people experience pain, the differences in that experience. We’ve looked a little bit at chronic pain, and we’re starting to look at endometriosis.

There are some really interesting links with R4R and physical activity as medicine, and how that can be useful not just for mental health, but also for physical health. So I’m really excited to be exploring that with R4R and seeing what’s happening.

My interests also lie in physical activity. I’ve done a lot of work with Annaleise in physical activity and how being physically active, and understanding the importance of physical activity, can be beneficial for many reasons.

So that’s why I’m here and excited to chat about the research we’ve been doing, led by these two, really.

Annaleise:
I’m Annaleise. I’m also with UC RISE and also work in the discipline of psychology alongside Andrew, teaching into the undergraduate program there.

My research area is around how we can understand and create a physical activity environment that everyone is welcome to, and that everyone gets what they want out of it.

So it’s not just showing up to exercise. It’s showing up to meet people, get the mental health benefits, learn more about a movement, a sport, whatever it might be. So really a full-circle approach to understanding physical activity and what every individual gets out of that.

It started broad, but I’m slowly starting to come into some more individual characteristics. So looking at that through R4R, but also through endometriosis populations and various other groups as well.

Ben:
Awesome. So as you can tell, bit of a dream team. Somehow we’ve managed to get a dream team together. All different backgrounds to study what we have.

For a bit of context, how this all came to be was Murray Bruce, R4R legend. Thank you, Muzza.

He met Jan Shadick, who was in the partnerships part of UC, at an event. Muzza was, as he does, promoting R4R or talking positively about R4R. One thing led to another, and through Jan, that was how we launched the run in partnership with the UC Stars Run Club, I think about 18 months ago, on campus at UC. It’s still going Tuesday and Thursday mornings. Good job to Locky and the crew.

Through Jan, she obviously really loved it and was a huge supporter, but I think she wanted to try and find a way for the uni to help R4R more than just shouting the coffees. I think she introduced us a bit over a year ago now, maybe late 2024.

I think the original idea was to have some students maybe do their honours project on it, but then you guys decided you wanted to do it instead of the students.

So, high level, Jo, what is the research you’ve done about? And why did you guys push the students aside to take the lead?

Joanna:
Thank you. First, I should say that we are so grateful to be here. This partnership has been something that we have all really enjoyed. We’re really proud of the work we’ve done, and it’s been an absolute privilege.

So we’re grateful for the trust you put in us. You, Matt, the whole R4R team and the community. Thank you.

Ben:
Thank you so much. It goes both ways.

Joanna:
The call came from Jan, I think. She reached out to UC RISE, and very quickly I ended up going to the meeting.

Angus, our research support person, said, “Oh, I think you’ll be interested in this, Jo. You should go.”

I rocked up to the cafe and said to someone I knew that I was meeting Ben Alexander. They said, “Oh, he’s over there.” And I said, “Oh, how do you know? Have you met him before?” And they said, “Oh no, I saw him play rugby.”

And I was like, “Well, that’s weird.”

I had absolutely no idea about your rugby background. I think it took me a couple of weeks to work that out.

Ben:
I am Victorian, I should qualify. I’m from there.

Joanna:
So, go Cats. But perhaps that meant it was a nice background to meet you and hear the work you were doing. I knew that it was important work and saw ways that we could service R4R through research.

Jan went to work elsewhere, but before she left I promised her that I would see this through.

Someone at UC RISE actually said, “Jo, you really care about this. You can just do it yourself.” And I thought, “Can I really?” Because I was asking all these questions about honours students.

And they said, “No, you can do it yourself.”

Then I thought, well, I need an A-team. So I got the literal A-team of Annaleise and Andrew from the discipline of psychology. They just jumped on board and said yes.

We decided that we would start off trying to understand the experiences of participants in R4R. We really approached it knowing that this was a community-led initiative.

Researchers love to measure things. We love to come in with our scales and our tools and measure things, but we didn’t want to do that. We deliberately sought to get a broad understanding of what was going on, really respecting the community, and then trying to understand what people were experiencing, their perceived benefits, and why people come to R4R.

I guess you knew that something special was going on, Ben. We thought, well, let’s try to understand that. So we went through all the normal ethics approval and got to work interviewing people.

Ben:
Do you want to quickly explain the method used, just to frame it? It was subjective? Or qualitative?

Joanna:
Yeah, qualitative research.

Qualitative research means we’re not coming in with quantitative measures to try to measure someone’s mental health, for example. We could have gone in and said, “Right, we’re going to measure mental health. We’re going to measure physical literacy. We’re going to give everyone pedometers.”

That’s more quantitative work.

With qualitative work, we’re getting a really rich picture by listening to people. So, interviews. We recruited from the community, people who wanted to talk to us about their experiences. We asked a lot of open questions, so people were using their own words and telling us about their experiences.

Of course, that means we only interview those who put their hand up to talk to us. So we definitely don’t claim that we understand the experience of every single individual who comes to R4R, or more broadly than that.

But we’ve done over 25 interviews, so 25 hours’ worth of transcripts and interviews. Annaleise and I both did the interviews, and then you really live and breathe that data.

Ben:
And you mentioned something important, which is that the data gets saturated at a certain point, where you don’t need to do more.

Joanna:
That’s it. We get to a point where we’re confident that new things are not really emerging.

Ben:
Patterns.

Joanna:
Patterns. Yeah. We’re seeing patterns. We feel like we’ve got a clear picture of what’s going on, and adding more people is not necessarily going to give us new information. Is that a fair summary?

Andrew:
Yeah, I think so.

As a bit of background for me coming into this project, it was really about understanding the what and why. What is happening in R4R? We recognise that we’re coming into this trying to understand the characteristics of R4R. For participants, what is it?

And then the why was: why are you engaging initially? What drew you to it? Why do you keep coming back? Why is it working for you? And in some cases, why not?

So I think that what and why was really what we were getting to. We continued to interview people until we felt like we understood that, and we started getting some repetition in responses and some patterns started to emerge.

It’s not about putting numbers on things. I think that just distils it down too much and generalises something that we don’t know a lot about.

You’ve spoken a lot about saying something’s happening, something’s working. I think these guys were able to extract that a little bit more, wrap it up and package it into something. There were some fascinating interviews coming out of that.

Ben:
What were some of the findings? And can we share any stories that you guys learned along the way?

Annaleise:
It’s so interesting thinking about the findings. Everyone has slightly different experiences, but a lot of common experiences as well. That’s what’s been really nice.

When you’re doing these interviews, you’re trying to figure out how you’re going to understand the data. We spent a lot of time asking, how are we unpacking this? How are we understanding this?

Of course, that comes with how Jo and I have decided to understand what’s going on. My favourite way of looking at it is that each individual is having their own journey through R4R. That can start differently for different people.

Some people do come because it’s a run club. “I get to go for a run.” Other people are starting that journey because they want to meet new people.

While that initial experience is different, a lot of them are having common experiences throughout. Knowing that it’s always there. It’s a circuit breaker.

Ben:
Circuit breaker like in their week? Or if they’re just stuck?

Annaleise:
Yeah. It’s on every Wednesday afternoon, 6pm at The Dock, rain, hail or shine. It’s there. I can go every week after work. I can talk to someone who’s not in my workplace, or at uni, or whatever it might be.

It’s that moment to step out of your everyday nine-to-five routine, if you want to say that, and do something new.

When that came through, I was like, wow. I never would have thought of something like that. I don’t know if that’s something you guys originally set out to do.

You don’t think that comes from social connection, but it does. It’s a whole new lens. A whole new group of people to connect to.

Similar story, but different. Coming to Canberra, a lot of new people came to Canberra and didn’t know how to meet people outside of a workplace or just in general. They came, met all these different people from different walks of life and with different experiences, and they were like, “How valuable that I have an entirely new community.”

That’s probably the part that stood out for me. If you go back to that journey, that’s one of those core pillars keeping people along for that ride, whatever else is going on in their life.

Joanna:
Yeah, that’s a perfect explanation of the journey.

Physical activity is still a key part of R4R, and it’s a hook that draws people in. A lot of people talk about that being their primary initial motivation.

Annaleise and I spent a lot of time coding and recoding. Coding and recoding the data is what you do to come up with codes and themes and pull out the main ideas.

Andrew is the king of distilling things and sense-making. I think that has been hugely valuable. He talks about active ingredients, and I think that’s a wonderful way to put this.

Physical activity is one of the key active ingredients. When people talk about what brings them to R4R initially, often it is that physical activity. We know that in itself is beneficial to people’s mental health. So that’s a key feature.

The other thing is social connection as another key active ingredient, which Annaleise has touched on.

People are drawn to the run club, or any other activity they might be doing, because perhaps they want to connect with people. Life transitions are huge. We heard from a lot of people who are new to Canberra, who are going through a divorce, who are having a difficult time for a host of reasons, retirement, new job, life transitions.

R4R is providing them an outlet for physical activity. It is informal, which we know Australians are looking to more and more for exercise. People are moving away from organised sport and activity and love the informality.

There’s no fee. There’s no sign-up. They just rock up and move. When you remove all those barriers for someone to get their physical activity in and be amongst people, that’s huge.

The social connection piece is the next one. People talk about that with or without conversation, which I think is a wonderful piece.

I can connect with someone just by running beside them, walking beside them, or being amongst people. Depending on where people are in their own lives and their own journey with R4R, for some people, that early engagement is just being there amongst people.

Particularly for those who are struggling, sometimes that’s enough. Just to know, I’m amongst people. That sense of social connection.

Interestingly, nobody we spoke to said the run became more important throughout their journey. Always, the social connection becomes more important.

Ben:
The whole thing about that, and we’ve been chatting for a while about it, is that the biggest pleasant surprise for me is that all of what you guys are finding maps to my own personal experience of R4R.

In the early days, we chose Wednesday night because it was the midweek break where I could get some exercise in before Parkrun on Saturday. Very selfishly, we were supporting it mostly to keep Shooter and I fit.

Then gradually, as the years rolled on, I realised, actually, this isn’t about running. It’s about the community, making friends.

Why I want to keep talking more about what you guys found is because I just want to make sure I’m not the only person who’s been feeling like there was something special brewing.

Andrew, can you explain more of the ingredients? Exercise was the big one, then community and social connection.

Andrew:
Within that can be a sense of community. Informality is another one. That’s all the way in which that’s delivered. The features of R4R deliver that easy access to physical activity and social connection.

Maybe I’d like to expand on that social connection thing, because it’s quite easy to say and it makes a lot of sense, but I think emphasising it is really important.

If you look at the research in this space, you can classify it as research on runners, and they come in many different forms, and research on running groups.

A lot of those running groups around the world have similar features to what R4R has, and some different combinations of those features.

What’s key in that research, which I think is probably the most applicable to what R4R is doing, is it’s not about runners necessarily. Although a lot of people who come to R4R are runners, they often don’t use it as part of their training. We’ve spoken about that quite a bit.

If you look at the research around similar groups with similar features combined in different ways, what is emphasised is social support. But something that I think is probably a more useful framing is peer support.

It brings people together without the pressure.

Some people refer to a sort of threat that therapy comes with, where in therapy you’re being challenged by the psychologist to think about something uncomfortable. There’s an expectation. When you go to therapy, there’s an expectation that you’re going to disclose challenges around your mental health.

R4R and other peer-support-type programs, particularly those that involve running, don’t appear to have that threat, that pressure to disclose.

It’s perfectly okay in a peer support environment, where it’s held within the context of running, that you don’t have that pressure. You can turn up and not talk to anyone if you don’t want to. You can turn up and disclose if you want to. But there’s opportunity there without the threat.

For me, that’s a really key active ingredient that I’ve seen in the work these guys have been doing, in the interviews that have come in. There isn’t that threat that often therapy comes with.

Now, I’m not saying therapy doesn’t have its place. Of course, it’s very important. But for many people, this can work really well because it’s without that threat. It’s an opportunity to disclose, but not an expectation to disclose. That’s a key difference.

Annaleise:
I think that leads into some of the stuff you’ve shifted towards really focusing on now as well.

You’ve created this environment where it is safe to talk about mental health and you can disclose what you want, when you want. There’s a lot more awareness of mental health within your group.

Your volunteers are now getting Mental Health First Aid training, and that has come through people knowing, “I can say, hey, I’m struggling. I can talk to the volunteer, and the volunteer knows where to send me to get further help.”

I know that’s something you guys have really been passionate about and working on for the last few months.

That’s come through this idea that not only can I say, “Jo was struggling today. Maybe we need to talk to this person tonight to understand how you can get more help,” but also people from the R4R community are taking that outside of R4R.

They’re going to work and saying, “This person has been distant,” or, “Something’s been going on at work and they’re not coping.” I can have a conversation and say, “Hey, you could come to R4R if you want, but also there’s support out there. You can go to these places, or I can connect you with people who know how to help you.”

There’s always going to be stigma around mental health, and I hate that. But having a group that has slowly broken that down, not only for everyone who shows up, but is then continuing to spread that message in the broader community, is something I’ve really enjoyed seeing come through the interviews.

Ben:
That’s trying to do this, sharing stories. The reason why I shared my story was maybe to help someone who was struggling themselves, but also to reduce that stigma and try to raise everyone else’s mental health IQ. That was a big part of why we started the pod and why we want to share stories.

I just want to go back to what you said, because it’s something I’ve thought about for a long time. That’s the first time someone has said something that I’d never realised, the R4R versus therapy thing.

Not that it’s a competition, but I think back to the moment that probably helped me most with my mental health. It was running with Breeny one morning.

It was a Friday morning. We ran out along the lake, and we’d gone about three kilometres, so we were into it, sweating, endorphins starting to kick in. We brought up a game that I’d lost, a really big game that, I hate saying the word, but suddenly felt pretty traumatic for me. It was the biggest game of my career. I lost. I sort of got blamed for it, and I never really got over that.

I ruminated almost daily for almost 10 years about that game.

But it was running with Breeny, and somehow the game came up. It wasn’t like, “We’re going to talk about my mental health and what I was struggling with.” We were running, and then it just naturally came up.

He was telling me where he was when he watched it, and I’m thinking, “He remembers me getting sent off.” But Breeny got every detail wrong about the game. He was like, “Yeah, I was at this bar in Singapore, and it was a close game.” And I’m thinking, “Mate, Breeny, we got flogged.”

But the whole point was that conversation made me realise that people don’t judge me for a game that happened 10 years ago. I thought everyone did. Everyone was going to be like, “It’s Ben’s sent-off game, big Lions match.”

But that moment, and I’ve told Breeny, has been the biggest one that’s helped me with my mental health in my life. He helped me come to the realisation that I was ruminating and I was being ridiculous.

Eventually, I might have got to that with my therapist. But it’s fascinating. Is there any more you can add to that? Why does that help? We’re not trying, even though we’re about mental health, something about it just lets stuff come up.

I’ve been on another run with another group, and we were going up Mount Ainslie. One of the dads started talking about divorce. It just started coming up about halfway or two-thirds of the way through the run, when he had the sweat on, and he opened up about his divorce. It helped him, and it was a big part of him moving on.

Andrew:
I think there are a lot of elements there. What you’re talking about is somewhat of a distraction effect, right? There’s a different purpose, and you can shift that focus to running up Mount Ainslie or whatever it might be.

But what’s interesting about R4R is that the clear purpose is framed around mental health. Despite that, there’s pressure off.

Ben:
It’s running and mental health, but we’re not saying you have to come.

Andrew:
Exactly. It’s a soft-touch type of approach.

Sometimes the challenge similar groups face is that there’s the opportunity for disclosure, but if something is disclosed, are people capable of responding and comfortable responding?

I think that’s what Annaleise was talking about around the Mental Health First Aid.

Ben:
That’s why we did the training. So people feel comfortable if someone did open up.

Andrew:
And I think that has flowing effects to the comfort with disclosure as well. They don’t feel like they’re passing on a burden necessarily. They feel like they’re passing it on to people who have been trained.

It’s someone who is there for that reason. Again, it’s not a therapist. It’s someone who is also disclosing back, if they’re comfortable doing so.

I think that social interaction, that give and take, is a key active ingredient of what we see in this. Creating the environment for people to speak, but then letting them speak when they’re ready.

Joanna:
It’s an opportunity, not an expectation. Psychological safety is one of the words I would use. It does get thrown around a little too much, but people talk about permission. “I’ve got permission to struggle. Maybe we’re not all doing okay.”

Some of the quotes that came through were about that.

Also, the mental health literacy piece, where people are equipped to understand mental illness. They are learning more about their own mental health and the mental health of others, and that adds to psychological safety.

Those two things go hand in hand. They know the resources available, and that is incredibly reassuring for people, even those who aren’t struggling.

That’s something that came through. We had some beautiful quotes from people saying, “I know if I’m struggling again in the future,” and they’re in a great place at the moment, “I won’t be alone.”

I think that is such a valuable thing. Very difficult to quantify. How do you quantify what that means to someone?

But going through your life knowing that things outside may cause you distress, and just having the idea that week in, week out, I can rock up to this place. I’ve probably formed some really close friendships through repeated encounters at R4R. Knowing that if I needed support, it’s there, or if a friend was struggling, I could bring them to R4R or point them to Lifeline. Those skills are just incredibly valuable.

Some of those interviews, full disclosure, I’ve been in tears reading back over them and listening, just thinking of that profound effect that has on someone’s life. I think it is remarkable.

The mission that is very clearly and explicitly communicated at the beginning of each run is incredibly important and holds the whole thing together.

This is something, when we were going through the data, we wrestled with a bit. People talk about the mission. We have this big mission of a suicide-free ACT, and people are aware of that. Even if they come to the first run and don’t know, they eventually become aware of that.

But those people who are coming, it’s the meaning they ascribe to the mission that I think is the magic.

I know you’re uncomfortable with the term mental health advocate. You maybe feel some discomfort there. A lot of athletes have loud advocacy, and expertise is another thing.

I don’t think that is the type of mental health advocate that you are. I don’t want to embarrass you here.

Ben:
I’m pretty good at embarrassing myself.

Joanna:
But the amount of people who mention you and the core R4R group, and that behaviour that you model, I think that is what true advocacy looks like.

A lofty goal like a suicide-free ACT is one thing, but what does that mean for me as an individual and the person next to me? Each of you in the R4R group really demonstrates that concern for the person right in front of you, and that is definitely taken through the community.

That’s where psychological safety comes from. People are safe because they know they’ve seen that behaviour modelled again and again and again by those around them.

Ben:
That was always “save one life from suicide.” Just one life. Then try and do that again and again.

Annaleise:
And they talk about that, right? It’s showing up, interacting with different groups. You’re not interacting with the 600 people who are there on a Wednesday night. You’re talking to smaller groups and different people.

We’ve also spoken about the importance, because you don’t see everyone every single week, of the newsletter and the RAG and things like that. They touch base and you see what that person’s experience or story was, and you know, “Actually, that’s quite similar to what I have gone through, and maybe I’m in that now, but I can get through it.”

That’s another part of this advocacy. I don’t know what the reasoning behind creating that was, and if you knew how beneficial that has been, but it has come through. It’s another medium for me to think about things, see things differently, and grow that confidence.

We’ve spoken a lot about developing mental health literacy and knowing where to send someone when they’re struggling. That 100% came through. But I think you touched on it as well. It’s growing our own mental health literacy to sit back and say, “It’s okay for me to just sit and listen to you talk right now. That’s okay. I can be somewhat comfortable with that, and I’m comfortable with you sharing that as well.”

I think that’s been really nice to see from a community group.

Ben:
That’s something I think I learned. I used to think you’d have to say the right things to help the person. No, it’s actually to shut up and listen.

Annaleise:
Listen.

Ben:
Yeah.

Annaleise:
But I guess you freak out, right? When R U OK? Day started, you were like, “Okay, I’m going to be this person who asks, are you okay?” Usually the first thing that comes with that is, “What if they say no? How do I respond to that?”

I feel like R4R is giving people the permission and the skills to sit back and say, “Okay, I’m just going to listen to why you might not be okay right now.”

That’s just as beneficial as being able to say, “Here you go. Let’s go to Lifeline,” or whatever it is.

Ben:
This all just makes me not feel crazy, hearing that you guys are finding this in the research.

Joanna:
It’s something Andrew touched on, that reciprocity. That comes through in the data.

You’re not just showing up for your own mental health. You’re showing up for the community. That is very clear through the interviews. People will sometimes be showing up because of the benefits they’ve received in the past. I think that’s also a strength in holding the community together.

Ben:
For sure. It’s, “I don’t need to go anymore, but I’ll come for everyone else that does need me to go.”

That quote you said before about that person feeling like they’re in a good place, but knowing that it’s there. I know I didn’t do any of the interviews, but I almost felt like I wrote that.

I was in a bad way when R4R started initially, and had one really bad patch probably two or three years into it. But now that I’m in a great place, just knowing that I’ve got that fallback safety net if stuff isn’t going great, and eventually something bad will happen, just knowing I’ve got it there makes me feel very relaxed. I’m ready to take whatever curveball is coming.

Annaleise:
That’s something we’ve talked about as well. We had a few participants who don’t go every week. They’re kind of in and out of R4R, to that premise that they know it’s there, either for themselves or for someone else.

We’ve also spoken about this idea that maybe the data is biased because we haven’t caught the people who aren’t going to R4R. We’ve grappled with what that means.

But we also had to sit back and say, it doesn’t mean R4R is not for them. It could mean they’ve gotten what they need and they don’t need R4R anymore. They can come back to it.

That’s been a really interesting thing for us to try and unpack.

Joanna:
Non-attendance is not failure.

Ben:
Non-attendance is not failure. Yes, exactly.

Can we unpack that first-timer experience? What came through there? What were the key things that helped people get to a point where maybe they didn’t need it anymore, or helped them really feel part of the community?

Annaleise:
They were different to begin with.

The thing we’ve landed on is that the first time can matter, but sometimes you might get caught up thinking that’s going to make or break it. It doesn’t necessarily.

We had drastically different first-time experiences. People came along, started chatting straight away and were like, “This is it,” straight away. Other people came along, maybe were a bit more anxious, a bit more introverted, didn’t talk to anyone at all and still came along.

There are a lot of differences there, but the thing that stood out is that whatever they’re doing, either engaging straight away or standing back, seeing people stay behind at the end is the biggest difference.

We get that a lot compared to other groups. Yes, you can stay and have a chat if you want, but participants used the word that it’s kind of expected of you, even though it’s not expected of you. Because so many people are doing it, and you can see that whether you’re engaged or not, it builds this idea that this is bigger than a run. This could be a community. Let me keep seeing what this offers for me.

Ben:
That subtle social pressure that they’ve got to stick around afterwards.

Joanna:
There’s place and opportunity to do it. There’s time and space to hang out, and that is different to other runs, in addition to the mission.

If we were looking to contrast this to another running group, that time and space and permission to stay back, permission to share if you need, and that really clear expectation-setting at the front end with the mission, and that being clearly communicated and demonstrated, all comes together.

That’s a good point Annaleise made. The first time can be really powerful. A lot of people will remember who spoke to them the first time.

This is something we’ve seen you navigate as R4R has gotten bigger and bigger. It can be hard. One of the quotes we have is that it can be the loneliest place in a crowded room.

When you are struggling and you’re in a room full of people and no one is speaking to you, that can be really hard and confronting. You could be focusing on the fact that no one is talking to you. “What’s wrong with me?”

Ben:
“Talk to me.”

Joanna:
Exactly.

But the fact that R4R has other events is also helpful. The smaller events can be more comfortable for some people. Your volunteers are huge. The volunteers being there to look out for first-timers and create those subtle connections.

But again, there is an informality to that, because no one wants to be asked, “So what’s your name? What are you here for?” There’s none of that at R4R, and that’s really important.

People do talk about the first person who talked to them, but for some, they don’t need that. They just want to be around other people.

Ben:
We’ve had stories of people not saying a word for three months, showing up every week and not speaking to one person for three months, but still showing up. Then eventually, “No, I’m going to talk to someone.”

Joanna:
I like the story of having the earphones in and running, and then deciding, actually, “I’m going to walk because I’m going to talk to people.” That’s a shift in thinking.

Ben:
Amazing.

What we’ve spoken about isn’t out there in the world already, in terms of literature and knowledge around community and exercise and how that’s related to mental health?

Is there anything that we uncovered that the world doesn’t already know? Because if we’re getting all this amazing feedback that it’s working, or working to a degree, is it already out there in the global academic understanding of human behaviour?

Back to the whole six-month thought exercise, how do we make Canberra suicide-free in six months? What is the key message out of the findings? Obviously, it doesn’t just prove that we’re not a running club, although that would help.

What is the key finding from the research that the world didn’t already know, that could really, if we managed to get some media on this and the paper, help the most amount of people struggling?

Joanna:
One thing I would jump in with is implementation.

A lot of these active ingredients, in their own right, have been researched. There is a lot of research around physical activity. Annaleise brought this up. We were at a conference presenting this work, and it was a physical activity conference. So there was a lot of talk about different types of physical activity that can help different outcomes.

Then everyone gets to, “Well, how do we implement this?”

Then there is similar research going on around groups and social identity, the connection you get from a group. But again, how do we implement this?

I think perhaps the biggest key message from R4R is what implementation can look like by combining all these different forces that are greater than the sum of their parts. That’s what I think we learn.

Ben:
The recipe.

Joanna:
The recipe. The combination.

Ben:
I know you sent me a long email about all the different conferences. Can you give everyone a little summary of where these findings are going to be presented?

Joanna:
We’ve been to physical activity conferences and some sport management conferences. Newcastle was a physical activity conference.

We’re looking at some local events, which is really important to us, to connect with local clinicians as well and get people in Canberra thinking about what that could mean for their patients. There are a few conferences coming up locally that we’re looking at putting abstracts in for.

The one in the US that’s coming up is a sport management conference. My ties to Florida State make me want to head there for that. But in particular, I want to talk at Florida State with the university. There are a lot of folks there interested in this topic.

If I can just get a couple of people thinking about what R4R are doing and how that could be implemented in their own community, then that’s hugely valuable.

Andrew:
Going to your question about what is different maybe, or what is an extension of what we know. What I find really interesting, and I haven’t spoken to you guys about this, so correct me if I’m wrong.

Ben:
Andrew is going off script. We love it.

Andrew:
What I have found interesting is that it’s been raised a few times, but not as much as I expected based on what other studies have found. No one seems to be talking about a sense of accomplishment by coming to R4R.

That is always the top one from a run club, from other social running groups. It gives me a sense of achievement or accomplishment.

That might sound like a good thing, and in many ways it is. But I’m starting to wonder whether that might lead to some of the negative consequences associated with running.

We know that training for a marathon or a big event like that can actually cause stress and anxiety. If you injure yourself and can’t continue training, that is stress.

Ben:
That is a failure.

Andrew:
Exactly. That’s really challenging, particularly if you’re drawing your sense of achievement and accomplishment from that.

I wonder whether the fact that that isn’t occurring at R4R is actually a good thing. People are building this into their everyday. It’s not an accomplishment to turn up to R4R. It’s something I just do, and I enjoy doing it. I’m not ticking it off my weekly list. It’s not my New Year’s resolution that I have to come to R4R.

I’m here because I want to be.

Ben:
Not forcing myself to do it.

Andrew:
Exactly. I wonder whether that’s something that is different to what we see in other groups.

Ben:
It certainly feels like that for me.

As a general exercise thing, being an elite athlete, it was all about running. Especially when I first got into it, it was all about Parkrun, my PBs and pushing myself.

Now it’s just about ageing well and doing things I enjoy. There’s so much less pressure on myself when I’m actually doing the exercise. It’s a lot more enjoyable without that voice in the back of my mind saying, “Come on, Ben, you’ve got to be pushing it to the limit.”

Relax.

Annaleise:
I think that’s been a perk of seeing you expand to all of the different activities. Someone can show up and still do Running for Resilience, but then they can do pickleball, they can go to the snow, they can go surfing, whatever it might be.

There are all these different activities, and people say, “I’m just going to jump into it and see if I like it.” For me, that’s what all my research is about, so I love to hear that coming through.

We’ve had conversations about the psychological safety just to rip in and have a go. You don’t need to be hitting aces.

Joanna:
I think underpinning all this, the purpose and meaning that people get isn’t coming from their own sense of personal achievement. For those who really see themselves as part of the R4R community, it becomes part of who they are.

That’s the social identity piece, group identification. The purpose and meaning they get is from contributing to something bigger than themselves, which isn’t the same as what you would get training for a marathon.

There’s a lot of self-efficacy, a sense of accomplishment and achievement if I’m training. But at R4R, I am part of something bigger than myself here.

Ben:
Can we double click on that for a second?

Are you saying that when someone is able to give back to R4R, or help someone, or do something that makes them feel like they’re part of something bigger than themselves, is that when they start identifying with that group? Is that the turning point?

Joanna:
They can, and it becomes part of who they are.

There’s a sense of identity. I belong in this group. This is part of my family. I’m part of something bigger than myself.

That meaning and purpose distinguishes some really powerful groups in our community. Religious organisations, for example, are about something bigger than yourself. R4R is about something bigger than ourselves, and it’s even bigger than my own mental health.

I think that’s key.

All of those ingredients we pointed to before are leading people away from focusing on their own achievements, their own self-efficacy, running faster.

Andrew:
If you want the crossover point, once you start saying “we”, that’s where group identity comes in. It’s about us.

Ben:
Before we go to what’s next, I was rude and cut you off. Did you have anything else?

Andrew:
No.

Ben:
That was very rude. I got a bit excited because that really cleared something up for me.

What next? Where could this lead? We want to shine some light on what we’ve discovered and how R4R has stumbled across a recipe that seems to be working.

What next? What do we all think, research-wise or doubling down?

Annaleise:
There are a lot of different ways to look at it, and that’s the part we’re struggling with, which is great because there are so many different ways.

Two we’re focusing on are looking at this in different subsets of populations. Are there unique advantages at the UC or ANU group, or groups that you haven’t potentially engaged in yet? Is there something where we can transfer the ingredients to create something for people?

Then also, how are we getting people to that “we” stage? What does that look like? How different is that for each person?

There are so many ideas, so I’m sure these two have some as well.

Andrew:
Before we even get to the ideas, I think this study in itself has been really valuable for us to understand what’s going on.

What we continue to talk about, and Jo started by talking about this, is just how lucky we feel. We feel very privileged to have access to people’s thoughts around what R4R is and how it works for them. We want to give back to that.

We continue to talk to Ben, and your thoughts around what should happen next with R4R and how our findings might contribute to that story and that refinement.

We’re really excited to do that. It’s very rare in research that you get to have this sort of immediate impact. I feel like we’re already having that, and this data is already having that impact. That’s super exciting.

There are all the academic outputs and the pathways we’re going to go down, but to have this impact in the Canberra community is what UC is about, and it’s what we’re excited about mostly.

Joanna:
Andrew, I don’t want to say too much more. I might tear up.

This work has just been a dream to do. On one level, three amazing people to work with. I’ve loved every minute. There is not a second I’ve begrudged this work.

To feel like we have had the trust of the community, and that in any way we can add just a little bit of snow to the R4R snowball, is very wonderful and rewarding.

Anything we do research-wise, we want it to be in service of that. We’re a team. We’ll keep working with you and Matt and anyone else, and help however we can lend our learnings.

Ben:
You’re adding plenty of snow. There’s plenty more snow to the snowball to come.

On behalf of our community, we could not be more grateful that you guys are giving your professional careers and that time to helping further our cause.

The Research for Resilience team, I like that buzz around it. With Dr David here, Susie, we’ll get you on as well at some point.

Imagine if we were able to contribute something to the world’s knowledge bank and understanding about a best practice, or a better practice, for helping people in your community with mental health. Or just helping people live better, really. Not just about health. Maybe that’s why I feel a bit funny about the mental health advocate label. It’s more about living better.

I can’t be grateful enough. We’re grateful to have you guys involved, and I know the whole community feels the same too.

Guys, thank you so much for your time today. Is there anything else you want to say? Any other plugs? Any other research coming up you want to share, or where everyone can follow you? Obviously LinkedIn, and stay in touch with any of your other research.

Joanna:
I think I would just emphasise the thank you.

As researchers, we sometimes feel a need to be a little detached. You always care about your research, but this is work that we’ve really deeply cared about.

If life can mirror research, I think it’s given us a real sense of purpose and achievement as well. Huge thanks. It’s a privilege, and we feel a great responsibility. We’ll keep doing our best in service of you all. Thanks.

Ben:
Thank you.

We stumbled across this, and it’s great to have some smart people verify that we might have actually stumbled across something that can help a lot of people.

Thank you, guys. We’ll have you back. Plenty more time to talk about future stuff.

Joanna, Andrew and Annaleise:
Thank you.