Matt Breen: Thank you for coming, Andrew. I appreciate it. All the way out from Orange.

I want to start this conversation with some of your words from November last year:

“We are heartbroken over the loss of our beautiful boy, but we are determined to remember him as he was: a sensitive, handsome man who was greatly loved by his family, his friends from Orange, Joeys, Souths and beyond. He touched many people in his life.”

Andrew Logan: Did I say that?

Matt: November 12. You posted it on your account.

Andrew: There’s a lot of stuff that I look back on, particularly the eulogy that I gave, and I was so shocked and stunned at that stage that the eulogy really wasn’t that great. There’s a lot of things I wish I’d said. But that, what you’ve just read, I think that encapsulates him really well.

Matt: It’s a good way to put it. Tell me about Johannes.

Andrew: Oh, wow. Well, Johannes was one of those people that you really had to know well to understand him. He was a deep pool.

On the surface, he looked like a big, strong guy who played footy. He was that guy you saw on the footy field: tough, a hard tackler, aggressive and goal-oriented, and that sort of stuff. But when you got to really know him, when you scratched the surface, you found that he was deeply sensitive.

He was very interested in other people. He was a great protector of younger kids and people who might have been weaker in some way. He was a great listener. A lot of his mates came to me after the funeral and said, “He sat with me when I was homesick,” or, “He sat with me when I was having a hard time. He talked to me, he listened to me, and he looked after me.”

That was him. He was a good writer. He had a great appreciation for art, and he was a good visual artist. So there were things about him that, on the face of it, when you saw him playing footy for Souths or playing footy for Joeys, you just wouldn’t have realised that he had those depths to him.

Matt: A contrasting personality, in a sense. How much do you remember about the day that you found out Johannes had died?

Andrew: I remember it all. I can’t shake that feeling that he slipped through my fingers a bit.

He’d come home for the weekend. He was home in Orange. The Orange Rugby Tens were on, and he came home because he had a lot of mates travelling from all over the place to play in that. He wasn’t able to play because he was contracted, but he still came home to see his mates and catch up with a whole lot of people.

He had a good time, and I saw him a couple of times over that weekend. I was meant to see him on the Sunday before he went back to Sydney, but things sort of clashed and I didn’t see him. I was going to be in Sydney anyway, so I was hoping to catch up with him on the Sunday night, but I didn’t. He was tired and he said, “I’ll catch you in the morning for a coffee.”

So we arranged to have coffee at 6:30am in Coogee before I got on a plane to go to Queensland and he went to work.

He texted me about half past four in the morning and said, “Dad, I’ve slept really badly. I’m not going to go to work today. I’m going to just try and get some more sleep, then I’ll go to training tonight and I’ll catch you later in the week.”

And I went, “Okay, no problem. That’ll be fine. I’ll catch you in a few days when I’m back from Queensland.”

So I went down to Coogee myself, had a coffee at about 6:30, and I caught a plane to Queensland.

That night I had just gone to bed in Queensland. I’d had dinner with a work colleague who’s also a massive rugby league fan. I remember saying to him at about 8:00, “Oh, Johannes hasn’t called me after training. They must have got a flogging. They must have given him a belting. He hasn’t called me.”

I went to bed in the hotel later that night. Just as I turned out the light, I literally reached out and turned out the light, and my phone rang. It was Johannes’s flatmate saying, “We haven’t seen him today. He didn’t go to work. He didn’t go to training. His keys and his wallet are here. His car’s here. We’re worried about him.”

So we rang Waverley Police. I rang Waverley Police. We got a call back about an hour later, and he had already been found earlier that day at the bottom of the cliffs at Coogee.

I suspect he may have already died by the time I was having coffee that morning in Coogee. I was literally staying in a hotel 150 metres up the road from his apartment.

So when I say I feel like he slipped through my fingers, that’s what I mean. I missed him in that way. That’s what happened on the day. Then I had to get back the next day from Townsville, which was a really long trip. It was a very, very hard day.

Matt: When I was looking back through all the work you’ve done since, and we’ll get to that later, I couldn’t help but have emotion boiling up in myself because there are similarities in a sense.

I lost my dad to suicide, and like you say, there are sliding doors moments where you wonder, what if things were just a tiny bit different? What would have happened?

But Andrew, I’ve got three kids and I’ve got a son. I can’t imagine the pain that you must have felt at that time.

Andrew: It wasn’t even pain. It wasn’t pain for a few weeks. It was just utter shock.

Footy players and boxers talk about having your bell rung, when you get a hit in the head that’s not quite enough to knock you out, but you get that vibration through your head and your body, you get that metallic taste in your mouth, and you’re swaying on your feet a bit.

It was that. It was just a hit. It was a visceral hit to the guts. I spent the next couple of weeks just trying to stay on my feet and operate. Just get through the day. Just get up and do the things that needed to be done.

Some of those things were really, really hard. I was really fortunate to have some good mates support me through some really difficult times.

He died at Coogee, and I thought it was really important to go up to the cliffs at Coogee before I got to a point where I couldn’t do that. My ex-brother-in-law came up with me, and I’ll be forever thankful for him for doing that, because that was something I needed to do in those first couple of days and I wouldn’t have had the strength to do it if he didn’t come with me.

I had a couple of mates of mine, Tim Burch and Todd Smart, who were old footy mates, who drove me out to Lidcombe to the coroner’s court where I had to go and view him after he died and identify him.

Those people in those times did things that were so valuable. If I learned one thing out of it all, there were people who just stood up for me and for us. In many cases, they weren’t the people I expected. The people I expected, in a lot of cases, didn’t turn up. And the people I didn’t expect did turn up. It was beautiful. It really made me see who was important in my life.

Matt: It’s funny, these conversations, how much they unlock memories.

My dad passed 16 years ago, and I was 18 at the time. I don’t know if I regret it, but I had the choice to see his body in the casket and I chose not to. I don’t know why.

Andrew: Tough thing to do at that age.

Matt: Yeah. I think I didn’t want it to be true, even though obviously it was.

Another thing that you reminded me of, that I’d completely forgotten, is that I went to the place where he died within the week. I don’t know what I was looking for. I think I wanted a ghost or something to come out of the trees and say everything’s all right. I just had to be there. And it was just silence.

What was it like for you to stand where you thought Johannes stood?

Andrew: It was hard. The walk up there was just, without over-egging it, it felt like walking to the gallows. It felt like Christ must have felt walking to the cross or something. They were just the hardest steps I’ve ever taken.

But getting up there, it was a huge outpouring of emotion. It was probably the first time since I got the news that I really just broke down, and I probably needed to.

It was in really stark contrast to seeing him, when I had to go and see him. I was steeling myself for that. I thought that was going to be really incredibly hard. And actually, it was very peaceful.

I think the reason it was so peaceful was that immediately when I walked into the room where he was, it was just very clear that his spirit wasn’t there. It was just a very empty feeling. It wasn’t him there.

Those were really formative experiences in the grieving process, I think. Feeling that the spirit of him was somewhere else and that spirit could still be with us in some way. The spirit of him wasn’t out at Lidcombe.

Matt: It’s funny you mention the spirit and the body.

When my mum passed, I think learning from, I use the word loosely, the mistake of not seeing my dad’s body, I sat with my mum’s body for a little bit in the hospital. Peaceful is one word for it. Bizarre is another word, because something that you have seen so many times light up, get angry at you — it’s just, there’s no other word for it really than the spirit that is no longer in there.

One thing that I’ve always found really hard to comprehend is the fact that my dad called me before he died. He was in so much pain. Obviously, you think Johannes texted you shortly before. What kind of state was he in?

Andrew: I only got a text, so it’s really difficult to put any feelings onto what was a pretty brief exchange.

If I looked at him in the days and weeks before, there was nothing really that I saw that made me worry. The only thing that probably concerned me was that I had a really big work week coming up. It had a lot of travel in it, and I’d been preparing for it for a little while, so I felt like I was pretty distracted by that. I lacked that presence that I wish I’d had to maybe pick up on something.

But he did all the things he normally would have done. On the Saturday night, when he was out, he sent me a photo of him with one of my mate’s sons that he was out drinking with. He often did that if he ever ran into somebody that I knew. He’d send me a photo. He texted me and asked me for a bit more money. There was nothing.

The only thing that made me prick my ears up a little bit was that he slept in really, really late on the Sunday, until 2:00. He had to get back to Sydney. He was staying at his mum’s place, but she was away with his sister on a water polo tournament, so he was staying there on his own.

He didn’t get up until about 2:00, and that was really unusual and unlike him. I just wondered later if maybe he knew that was the last time he was going to sleep in his own bed or something. I don’t know.

There’s a lot of speculation around it, and it’s easy to speculate about a lot of things. I try not to do that too much.

Something that people say a lot when I reflect on those things is, “You mustn’t blame yourself,” and, “Don’t beat yourself up over it.” I don’t at all. I don’t beat myself up over it. I don’t blame myself, because I know I did the best that I could at the time with what I knew.

Probably the thing that’s got me out of it is just how little I knew. That’s probably what’s been the driver for me to try and share some of what I’ve learned since with other parents, because I look back now and realise I knew nothing.

Matt: I want to get to that. One thing I find quite remarkable is how much — I went through all your stuff on your page, and we’ll put a link in the show notes for other people — and it’s amazing how you’ve processed this publicly.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a better way to put it. I wouldn’t say I’ve healed. Healing is going to be a long road, but definitely processed.

Matt: I think it’s worth following that journey for a little bit because something that was quite profound to me is that you got onto it really quickly. You realised that not enough people ask for help.

But rather than add another beat to that drum that is continually being made, you asked for help from your network. You said, “I need you guys to text me every day,” with the quote, “Get up, you fat bastard,” and exercise.

Andrew: Yeah. I’ve still got a couple now. I asked for help in December for 30 days, and in April the next year, I still had a few who followed through.

One of my mates, a bloke called Hamish Munro, is still there every few days. God bless him. He’s just been there the whole way.

It was an amazing thing to do. I did it on the spur of the moment because I knew I needed help. My instinct told me that if I didn’t get moving, grief was just going to overwhelm me and I wouldn’t be able to get moving.

I just knew that if I got out and did something, some sort of activity or exercise, I would get through it eventually, or get through the worst of that early stage.

So I just asked people. I said, “Send me a message every day, and those of you that can, come and do Federal Falls with me,” which is a track near Orange. It’s a trail, a good loop.

People showed up, and it was amazing. One day I had five of Johannes’s mates come and do it with me. These 18-year-old, 19-year-old guys just came out and smashed it out with me. I had a mate from Queensland who was visiting his mum in Bathurst, an old footy mate. He drove over and came and did it with me one day.

People turned up. It taught me that if you ask for help, people will show up. The hardest part is asking, but once you ask, people show up for you. And people love to be asked for help. It makes them feel like they have a purpose. Everyone wants to feel they have a purpose.

Matt: Another thing, and I think the reason people help, is because almost everyone’s been through something. You found it that way too, where people would say, “Hey, I’ve been through this. I’ve been through that.”

Andrew: Yeah. I had a lot of people talk about their own grief and compare it. They’d say, “I lost my mum, so I sort of know how you feel. But it’s not the same. It’s not as bad as what you’re going through.”

What I learned is that nothing is as bad or as good. It’s not relative. The grief you feel in yourself for whatever you’re going through is real, and it’s not comparable to anything else. It doesn’t need to be. It’s relative to you.

The grief that I’m feeling is the same grief that you felt when you lost your mum, or the same grief you felt when you lost your dad. The same grief I felt when I lost my mum. The same grief somebody else feels when they lose their husband. It’s all the same, and it deserves to be treated with that sort of kindness.

Matt: I agree. Maybe something having kids taught me is watching my kids blow up at the slightest little thing and realising, hold on, relative to them, this is a big deal.

Andrew: That’s right.

Matt: The hardest moment of someone’s life is the hardest moment of their life. They only know how to deal with it with the tools they’ve got. There are objective things that are harder, in a sense, but it’s almost pointless to compare because you don’t know what you don’t know. You can only operate on what you’ve got.

Andrew: Exactly.

Matt: You kept moving. One of the things that came to my head when you said you wanted to keep moving otherwise you thought the grief would overcome you, is a story that sticks in my mind about the bulls or the cows that run away from the rain versus the bulls or cows that run towards it.

When you run away from it, you stay in the rain a bit longer because it passes over you. If you run towards it, you run through it. You still get wet, but it lingers for a little less time.

It’s a comment to you that you kind of ran towards your pain and your grief to help process it for yourself. But very quickly in the journey, you shifted your tone a little bit. It was less comprehension, less understanding, and more, “I want to help someone like Johannes. I want to help them before it’s too late.”

Andrew: That tone shift probably happened around the time I started trying to understand. I wanted to understand what took him to that place. What drove him to that feeling of having no way out? What led him to that?

I just started listening to things and reading. Audiobooks and podcasts. Then they would mention a book in a podcast, and I’d get it and read it.

It became immediately obvious to me how little I knew about the risk factors and how poorly informed I was. It really shocked me.

My immediate thought was, my God, there are other parents out there like me who have the same ticking bomb in the background that’s going to go off one day, and they are not aware of any of the circumstances around it, just like we weren’t.

I just wanted to do whatever I could. What little I could. If I could shift one or two people a couple of degrees off that path and they ended up not crashing into the wall at the end, that was success. That’s what I was after.

Matt: I loved one of the examples that you used. I said to you before we started recording, you’ve got this beautiful way of painting pictures with your words, with stories.

You mentioned it briefly on the phone, how you saw all the road signs coming, but when you turned around, they were showing something different.

Andrew: Yeah. It was an image that came to me early and it stayed with me.

I remember saying it to somebody one day. They were asking how I was and I said, “I feel like I’ve been driving down a long road and looking at the road signs going past, and now I’m at the other end and I’m looking back, and all those road signs say something different on the other side.”

It was a reference to all of those things that I observed in Johannes along the way, but I had no framework for understanding what they were. When I look back, I suddenly realised, that thing, that thing, that thing — those were all little indicators that there was something wrong. I just had no framework or knowledge to be able to make sense of them.

Matt: There’s one example you use, and I’ll introduce it with my own example.

A few months before my dad died, we had somewhat of a falling out. He’d done something. He was having an affair. I told him I was disappointed. That’s what I said to him, for almost no other reason than that it felt like the right thing to say. I think I’d watched enough TV shows and movies to feel like that is what is said in this moment.

When you’re 18, you think you know it all.

Andrew: Definitely.

Matt: I definitely regret it. Not because of the outcome, but because that’s shaped me. If I wanted him to be part of my life, I should have found a way to deal with that there and then and move forward, however we wanted to move forward.

But there was a moment where I applied a thing and I didn’t pay any attention to the pain that he was probably feeling.

At the same time, you told a story about a certain car trip, and there’s a bit of humour in this.

Andrew: Yeah. I picked him up. I always tried, and still do, wherever possible, to drive my kids back to boarding school. A couple of reasons. One, because it’s a few hours in the car that I get to spend with them. And two, because I want them to always feel like somebody cares enough to take them to school, not just chuck them on a train.

That said, my middle boy AJ was on the train on Monday because logistics didn’t work. But wherever I could, I tried to drive them back.

I picked Johannes up one day to take him back to school, and he got in the car and chucked his AirPods in and didn’t say anything. We drove out of town, and drove out of town, and got to Bathurst and still he hadn’t said a word. We kept going and got nearly to Lithgow, and still he hadn’t said anything.

I was starting to boil a bit, because you’re a parent and you’ve got all the stresses that come with parenting. You’ve got other things going on around work and all that sort of stuff. You’re under pressure. You’re taking time out of your day and you think you should be appreciated for doing what you’re doing. When they don’t talk to you, you start getting irritated.

So I said to myself, if this kid doesn’t talk to me by the time we get to Lithgow, I’m going to go to the train station and put him on a train.

He didn’t say anything. So we got to Lithgow and I turned around and drove to the train station. He had his head in his phone and didn’t realise what was happening. I got out, walked over the road and bought a ticket, came back and gave him the ticket.

He said, “What’s going on?”

I said, “Mate, you can not talk to me on the train just as easily as you can not talk to me in the car. So see you later. It saves me a two-hour round trip as well, so I’ll catch you.”

I put him on the train. At the time, I thought it was a bit of tough love that was necessary.

The further I get away from it, even before he died, I realised it was completely wrong. It was just the wrong thing to do. I realised he was struggling. The reason he wasn’t talking was not because he was being rude or arrogant or anything like that, because he just wasn’t that sort of kid. He was a good kid.

I should have been coming at it from that point of view and going, this kid’s a good kid. Why is a good kid feeling so silent? Why is he not able to speak up or engage?

The answer I would have got would have been: he’s daunted by going back to school. He’s homesick. He’s sad about leaving home. He was a real homebody. He loved being at home. It would have been obvious to me that he was struggling.

At the time, we butted heads about it for a few weeks after that, and that was probably the biggest falling out he and I ever had. We didn’t ever have anything like that again, but I regretted it.

I told that story because I felt really strongly about the realisation I’d come to: he was a good kid who was behaving badly because he was under pressure and he needed help, not because he was a bad kid behaving badly.

Matt: I think a lot of parents make that mistake. I’ve made it as recently as yesterday. My son’s five, and I feel like they’re all trying on new shoes. They’re trying on new personalities all the time.

He’s picked up a habit that I don’t think is a good one, and I was getting a bit harsh on him, as harsh as you can be on a five-year-old. But that lens of, no, hold on, Jimmy’s a good boy. He’s a good kid. This isn’t anything that needs to be nipped in the bud early. This is just a natural ebb and flow, or something that just needs to be observed from a different angle.

I think it’s a really useful angle.

Andrew: The other thing that came out of it for me was, what did I demonstrate to him?

What I demonstrated to him was: if you don’t do what I want, I’m going to punish you. I’m not present and available for you in a safe way for you to talk to me. There’s no safety here. There’s no security here. You either do what I want or you will be unhappy about the outcome.

That whole set of assumptions and practices and behaviours that I was demonstrating are just all counterproductive.

If we’re talking about suicide as the ultimate outcome, the ultimate expression of sadness and hopelessness, then those sorts of things start with showing boys that they are unsafe, that the place they are in is fundamentally not going to treat them well.

Fortunately, that example sticks with me because I only really did it the once. But that’s why I shared it.

Matt: It kind of leads into something that is part of your journey now, which is stuff that you want other parents to know. Not just about the behaviour we can have with kids, but about what their kids might be going through, where they’re at, and things to look out for.

Andrew: When I started, I wasn’t sure who I was talking to. I wasn’t sure if I was talking to boys and young men themselves, or whether I was talking to the parents. It became increasingly clear that I was talking to the parents.

There are people out there doing amazing work with boys and young men. I don’t know if you’ve come across Tommy Herschell, Find Ya Feet?

Matt: I think we have.

Andrew: Tommy’s a legend, and the stuff he does is amazing. I could never hope to connect with boys and young men on the level that he does. He does work in schools and NRL clubs and all that sort of stuff.

Matt: I think Jake Trbojevic spoke with Benny just recently.

Andrew: That’s right. Jake would have done that. Tommy’s a Northern Beaches guy, so they fly together.

There are guys like that doing incredible work with boys and relating really well to them. The contact I was getting, the feedback and the messages, was all from parents saying, “I’ve got two boys,” or, “I’ve got three boys. They’re footy players. They’re 16, 17, 18. They’re in high school. They’re at boarding school.” There were all these similarities with what we went through with Johannes.

They were saying, “We don’t know what to do. We don’t know if there are any risks present. We just don’t know. What can you tell us?”

Matt: What can you tell them? What would you tell yourself?

Andrew: As a broad brushstroke before getting into the detail, I’d say: listen to your intuition, but not necessarily your anxiety.

Every parent has anxiety. We’re all worried about our kids every minute of every day. Don’t listen to the worry that’s ever present. Scratch that away and look underneath for the intuition. If your intuition is telling you there’s something a bit off, then it’s pretty likely that there is. That’s the stuff you need to be looking at.

I look at it as a four-lane highway. Imagine you’ve got a four-lane highway heading off into the distance. On the left, you’ve got beaches and beautiful parks and it’s all lovely. On the right, you’ve got a big cliff.

Lane one is normal life. You go through life, everything’s pretty good, not too many dramas. Occasionally, you move into lane two. Something bad happens, you deal with it momentarily, and then you get back into lane one.

If things get chronically bad, you end up in lane three: anxious, depressed, feeling like a burden. You don’t come back from there very easily. You tend to spend a lot of time in lane three.

Then if something goes particularly bad, you start getting really poor sleep or, if you’re an older boy or young man, you might start drinking or using drugs or whatever, and then you’re in lane four, right next to the cliff. It only takes the smallest thing to bump you off the edge.

What you’re trying to do is see when boys get up into lane three, which is all of the stuff that leads to suicidal ideation, suicidal thoughts, and head it off before they start dipping into some of the risk factors for action.

What you’ve got to know about boys and young men is that right through to their early twenties, their frontal cortex is underdeveloped. Naturally, their appreciation of consequences, their ability to understand risk, and their ability to make quality decisions is not great anyway. From when boys are 15 to when they’re about 22, that ability is not fantastic for a lot of them, just because their brain is growing and developing.

When you combine that with things like anxiety and lack of sleep, and start piling those things up, it gets bad really quickly. They become very impulsive. They lack the ability to appreciate the consequences of their actions, and that’s dangerous.

Matt: I think you’ve laid it out really well, how to observe the different lanes someone might be in and what they can do to help push back to that left lane.

How are you going now? We are, is it six months?

Andrew: Five and a bit. It’ll be six on the 10th of May.

How the process unfolded for me — and grief is very individual, as you know, so I wouldn’t presume to say this is how it should unfold for anyone else — but for me, in the early stages, it was just pure shock. It took me a few weeks to really start feeling it.

Then every few days I was having a bit of a breakdown. I’d get through a couple of days, then I’d have a bit of a breakdown. The space between those got longer.

Now, I probably go a week or a week and a half without really feeling that sad. I can distance myself from it and be fairly logical about it. But then every now and again, somebody close to me will ask the right questions or say the right thing. I say the right thing because it’s important to feel it.

People make you cry and they go, “Oh jeez, I’m sorry,” or, “Sorry, I said the wrong thing.” And it’s like, no, no, I’m feeling what I want to feel. You’ve touched the thing I care about the most.

Last night, I was having a chat and the person I was with asked a few really insightful questions. It really got me, and I had a cry for 10 minutes.

Matt: What questions?

Andrew: About Johannes. What was he like? When certain things happened, what did he do? How did he deal with certain situations? They were just talking about him.

Talking about him is a bittersweet thing. You know it’s going to make you sad, but the payoff is he’s alive for those moments you’re talking about. So you want people to talk about him.

We always talk about him. We talk about him in the same way we always did. We laugh about him and we laugh at him. We do all the same things we used to do, and we miss him.

I think it’s an important thing for people to know. I’m touching on grief, which is not really my subject outside of lived experience.

Matt: Grief is your subject.

Andrew: What I would say to people who are around people who are grieving is: ask the questions about the person. Don’t feel like you’re going to upset somebody. We actually want to talk about the person. We want to talk about them. We want to talk about what we loved about them, what they were like, and all those things.

If we look like we’re getting upset, we’re not. We’re just in touch with the thing we care about the most.

Matt: I agree. Especially if you’re close to that person. You can ask a question. You’ve just got to go with your gut. It’ll become clear if you shouldn’t be talking about it while you’re talking about it.

But I’ve seen it too many times where people are almost waiting to be asked. When you unlock that door, it’s lovely because they get to relive something they hold so dear. It’s not even close to what we wish we could have, but it’s all we’ve got and we want to savour it and make the most of it.

At my dad’s funeral, he had a three-volley salute, and one of the blokes from the Navy came up and gave me some of the bullets. In the eulogy I gave, there was a quote: “To live in the hearts we leave behind is not to die.” I had it on my keychain. I’ve still got it around the house.

It reminds me. I think about my dad every day. I think about Mum every day, no matter what. But it’s so nice to have little things that prompt you out of the blue.

How does Johannes feature in your day-to-day at the moment?

Andrew: I think about him all the time. He’s with me all the time.

The time of year at the moment is tough because it’s early footy season, and footy season for our family and for me with my boys was always such a joyful time. We launched into footy season.

We used to have a day, early in the season, where we’d go and buy footy boots. It was a big day. Today we’re going to go buy footy boots. Even when I stopped playing, I was still just as excited to go and buy footy boots for them.

Footy season has always been a huge thing for us. When Johannes was in the Firsts at Joeys and then when he started playing at Souths, everyone in the family was so invested in what he was doing. Losing him, we didn’t only lose him, we lost all of that connection to those communities.

We still support Souths a lot, because his flatmates are still there, or one of his flatmates is still playing. Leblanc and some of his good mates — Tom Fletcher, Joey Gray and Matty Humphreys — those are all good mates of his who are playing. We try to support those guys because that makes us feel close to him. That’s just a thing we love to do and it keeps him alive for us.

It’s little things. Little things that people say and little stories that come up along the way that make us laugh about him and remember him.

Matt: I might be pulling the curtain back a bit on how silly I am, but whenever we see a feather, we call it a GG. That’s what my mum wanted to be called as a grandma.

We’ve got little quirks like that where, for the moment, we allow it to be that they’re around. You know, GG put that there to say hello.

You had something recently. You’re a big Souths supporter now, but you play Wordle, like every middle-aged man plays Wordle.

Andrew: That was just extraordinary. I was sitting with Johannes’s sister, Abby, at a cafe. I think we were in Manly, and it wasn’t very long after he died. It was in December, maybe around Christmas.

We were sitting there doing Wordle. Johannes was a rugby player who went to league and went to play for the Bunnies. For a laugh, we said, “Johannes is with us today. We should put rugby in.” So we put rugby in, and we got the U and the B and the Y.

The next word we put in was bunny. And that was it. We got it in two that day, which is one of the very few days we’ve ever got it in two. The two words were rugby, bunny. It was extraordinary to me.

We see that stuff a lot. We keep an eye out, a bit like you guys. We look out for bunnies all over the place.

Matt: I think it is what you make it. We had a fellow on before, Murray, who spoke about how his wife passed and he messages his wife on Facebook often. It’s just little things we do to keep the ones we love alive.

I chat to my parents all the time. When I want to make a decision, I’ll consult them. I’ll think about what they would have said. It’s just normal. You just want them around.

Andrew: Absolutely. Everyone’s got their own views about spirituality and that sort of thing, but I definitely feel him with me.

He had this way of answering the phone or greeting you when he opened the door. He’d say, “Hey, Dad,” but he’d sort of run the two words together. It was just this little, “Hey, Dad.” That’s what he said whenever he answered the phone or opened the door.

I hear that occasionally. I get a feel that he’s around, and I hear that little, “Hey, Dad.” Is it my mind playing tricks on me? Is he with me? I don’t know. I don’t care. It makes me feel better, and I love tuning into him from time to time.

I know he’s with us. I know that the spirit I spoke about that was absent when I went to see him at Lidcombe, that spirit didn’t disappear. It’s around us and with us. I don’t think we lose people that we care about that much, that we love that much.

Matt: It depends what you believe, but ultimately it is what you make it. In the same way that whatever you’ve been through is yours, your grief is your grief. Your relationship with whoever has passed is your relationship with them.

There’s something that jumped out to me. That bloke I spoke to before relied a lot on religion in his time, and R4R is not religious, but we try to champion everyone’s positions on how they get through things. Often, the spiritual can be such a north star for people.

I don’t know whether it is for you, but I think it connects with your journey from grief, or still grief, through grief, to trying to help others.

The quote you said was: “In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until in our despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.”

You’ve learned so much through this, haven’t you?

Andrew: Yeah. It’s been without question the most formative event of my life. The most unwanted formative event of my life also.

I’ve learned so much, not just about suicide and the thinking that leads up to that, but about people, relationships and friendships. It’s been an extraordinary period of time.

Matt: With all that knowledge, it seems like you’re really channelling it into a movement that is tasked with teaching people to say, “Hey, I’m not okay.”

Andrew: I want boys and young men to be able to say, “Hey, I’m not okay.” That phrase came out of thinking about how you give them something that is simple and easy to say.

That was early on, when I felt like maybe I was talking to boys. But when I realised I was talking to their parents, it became: how do you give parents a better understanding of how they show up so their boys can say that?

How do you, as a parent, observe the signs? How do you connect better? How do you provide a space that’s safe and quiet and allows boys to talk when they’re ready, so that when they are ready, they can say, “Hey, I’m not okay.”

Matt: You’re still early in this piece. What do you envision down the road with this goal of yours to help create that language, but also create that behaviour?

Andrew: I don’t really know. I’ve got a lot of conversations going with people who are involved in mental health in all sorts of ways. I’ve got a lot of respect for everybody who works in the space. There are amazing initiatives in the space. There’s very necessary research going on.

Black Dog has just released a really great report into teens and screens, looking at how social media use affects kids, and there are some really interesting conclusions in that. That sort of research, formal education and awareness is everywhere.

I think the risk with a lot of that is that it becomes overwhelming for people and people switch off.

I had some conversations early with a couple of rugby league journalists who asked me if I thought the NRL should have a mental health round. I said no, I don’t think they should.

They said, “Don’t you think it’s the NRL’s responsibility?” I said, “No, I don’t think it is their responsibility.” I think there’s an opportunity for organisations like the NRL, who are very influential, to do things. But having a mental health round, I think, reduces it to a slogan, and I don’t think that’s helpful.

Ultimately, the responsibility rests with parents. The really obvious dynamic that parents are asking about and saying they have difficulty with is connecting. How do we connect with our boys in a way that they feel safe and can actually talk to us?

I think maybe that comes with broadening the circle of people that boys are connected to.

Any man knows that when you are in your late teens or early twenties, you think your parents don’t know anything. I think we’re all the same. It’s a story that’s been told in various ways many times, but the first time I heard it was from a rugby league player. It was someone in the ilk of Brad Fittler. I don’t think it was Brad Fittler, but it was someone along those lines years ago.

He basically said, “When I was 16, I thought my old man was an idiot. Later on, when I was about 25, I was amazed how much he’d learned in the last nine years.”

I think that’s true.

It’s one thing for me to say to my boys, “I’m proud of you. I love you. I respect your effort. I admire your commitment.” But they expect that from me. If someone outside their circle says it — a family friend or a coach, just somebody else — and says, “Hey, I love you. I respect you. I admire your achievement. You’re an important person to me. You’re an important person in my life,” that hits hard.

That’s the sort of stuff they need to hear from a broader circle. I think our society has evolved in a way where we don’t have as many of those people around us, extended family and other people like that, as we had in the past.

Matt: A network of role models can work on the flip side as well. Like you say, in that unique window where parents don’t know anything, you’re not going to take feedback as quickly as you could. But if somebody, maybe a friend, says, “You’re being a bit of a loony at the moment. Pull your head in,” you’re much more likely to take it on board.

Andrew: That’s true. The guy who said it the other day and encapsulated it beautifully was a mate of mine, John Minto, who’s an ex-Rabbitoh himself. We were talking about it the other day, and he said, “You have to show boys how important they are to other people.”

That was the key thing: those three words, “to other people.”

You can tell boys how important they are. “Mate, you’re really important to me. I love you,” and all that sort of stuff. But they have to understand that they’re important to other people. They already know they’re important to their parents. They know that. And that actually comes with some pressure, too.

But if they feel they’re important to other people, that becomes a real safety net. It becomes a real foundation they can stand on.

Matt: It’s almost diversifying it in a way, creating layers to the safety net.

Andrew: Exactly. When I talk about the four-lane highway, what we’re trying to do as parents is set up a guardrail along that cliff edge, so there are things that stop them from going over the edge.

Matt: Andrew, I know the people listening to this right now are probably parents. Where can they go? What resource is that first rung on the ladder that sets them off on the journey to being equipped as they need to be?

Andrew: The thing that was most impactful for me was a podcast with a guy called Matthew Nock, who’s a Harvard researcher. He’s specialised in suicide for many years. He’s had lived experience himself.

He did a podcast with Jay Shetty, and the link to that is in my Instagram bio. I got the transcription of that and did a summary of the risk factors.

Think of it this way. It’s pretty straightforward. There are risk factors for suicidal ideation, suicidal thoughts. Then it becomes a progression.

People who sit with suicidal ideation for a long time, if they are then also exposed to the risk factors for suicidal action, are more likely to make an attempt.

So what parents need to be doing, if they have concerns, is familiarising themselves with those risk factors.

There are three or four risk factors for suicidal ideation: things like depression, anxiety, lack of belonging, feeling like a burden. Those are the main ones.

Then there are a dozen or so for suicidal action, and they include triggers. They’re mostly triggers: access to lethal means, chronic sleep deprivation, use of drugs and alcohol, and all these sorts of things.

What we’re saying is, people who have those risk factors for ideation, if they stay in that long enough, progress to thinking about taking action. If those risk factors for action are present, that’s when catastrophe happens.

If I talk about Johannes in practical terms, he had always had some level of anxiety. He put a lot of pressure on himself to perform, and he was very conscious of performing at a high level. He was very goal-oriented. He was a typical elite athlete, focused on performing and down on himself when he didn’t.

So the anxiety was always present. Then, judging by some of the comments he used to make to me, I think he felt to some degree like he was a bit of a burden on us. If I helped him out with a few weeks’ rent or something like that, he’d grumble and go, “Jeez, I’m really sorry, Dad. I know I shouldn’t be doing this.” And I was like, “Mate, that’s what we do. We’re parents.”

But there was some level of burdensomeness and some level of anxiety. Those are the risk factors for ideation.

Then he went to the GP for help with sleep because he was having trouble sleeping. So suddenly you’ve got anxiety and burdensomeness mixed with chronic sleep deprivation. A young fellow in the offseason, recovering from injury, having a few beers — don’t know what else — and then, in the location where he was living, access to lethal means.

Suddenly you start looking at it that way and the risk factors start piling up. This is what I mean when I say we didn’t know anything. I just had no idea.

He went to the GP. She said, “Here’s some medication to help with anxiety. Here’s some melatonin to help with sleep.” If I’d known just those two things and knew what I know now, I would have gone, “Whoa, red flags. Massive red flags.” Because anxiety mixed with chronic sleep deprivation is a huge risk.

But I just didn’t know.

Matt: Didn’t know. And that’s a lot of what you’re trying to do now.

Andrew: So what I would say to parents, back to your original question, is familiarise yourself with the risk factors. At the very least, know what you’re talking about. Know what the risks are, so that you can start to recognise that stuff.

Then, when you’re talking to the GP, you can say, “Anxiety, chronic sleep deprivation — I’m really concerned about those things. What do we do about that?”

Don’t be fobbed off with, “Here’s some, try this, try that.” You need to take those things seriously, but you can only do it if you know what they are.

Matt: We’ll definitely put the link to that podcast. Matthew Nock with Jay Shetty, and the summary you did. There’s also the PDF.

Andrew: There’s a link to that in my bio as well. I can give you the links and you can put them up.

Matt: How can people help what you’re trying to do in their everyday life? Is there anything you’re trying to do where we can send people over from our community if it resonated with them? What can we do to help?

Andrew: I don’t have a foundation or anything like that. What I’d say is not so much how can people help me, but how can they help boys?

I would say, connect with the boys. Not just your own boys, because you’re actually more influential to boys that you’re not the parent of. That’s helpful to their parents. Connect with boys and young men that you know in the community and ask how they’re going. Be one of those people that provides them with a wider circle.

The second thing I would say is definitely familiarise yourself with the risk factors.

If you really want to do something tangible, and you want to do some work for an organisation that actually makes a difference — and I know this because I’ve spoken to people who have been on the phone to them and have said that was the turning point for me — that’s Lifeline.

I’ve got endless respect for the people who run Lifeline and work for it. They’re poorly funded. They deserve much better funding than they get. The work they do is on the ground. It actually makes a difference to people who are in crisis in that moment.

I would say to people, if you want to really help, donate some money to Lifeline or volunteer for Lifeline.

As a parent myself, when I talk about parenting, please don’t ever let me appear to be an authority, because I screw it up just as much as all of us. I’ve learned through bitter, bitter experience.

But what I would say is our instinct as parents is to give advice and correction. When boys and young men are struggling, those are the two worst things we can do.

There’s another link in my bio which has some notes for connection. It talks about connecting with boys through positive contact and encouragement. No questions. No advice. No corrections. Just reminding them that you’re there for them.

Send them a text. Send them a handwritten note. Drop a note in their lunchbox or in their bag, or whatever, that says, “Mate, I’m proud of you. I’m thinking of you today. I admire the effort that you put into training, or that project, or whatever it was.”

Just simple statements that remind them that you’re there for them. You’re not judging them. You’re not advising them. You’re not correcting them. You’re just there, and you’re there when they need you.

Matt: I couldn’t agree more. From feeling it, and from being on the other side where I’ve tried to fix people’s problems, the most powerful times are when you literally just say, “Mate, I’m here for you,” and then silence.

Andrew: You’re so right. A mate asked me at lunch yesterday, “What’s the best thing I could do with my son?” I said, “Mate, I don’t want to be flippant, but shut the fuck up.”

That’s the best thing we could all do. Sit in the silence. Give them security, safety and silence, and let them talk when they’re ready.

It might take a while for them to organise their thoughts in their head to a point where they can actually say something. It’s our job to provide them with the space to do it, not to try and prod them and pull it out of them and reach down their throat and drag the words out.

One of the things I said in one of my posts, which was totally off the cuff and so many people commented on it, was: our job is to get information out, not put information in.

We spend so much time putting information in. “Here’s some advice. Here’s some correction. Did you do this? Did you do that? Here’s a question.” Shut it up.

Give them space and safety to talk when they’re ready. It might take a few goes. You might sit there in silence and get nothing. It’s not about us getting a response. That’s the other thing. We’re so wedded to getting a response.

I did it with Johannes. I used to manipulate and probably bully him in a way to talk. Eventually I would corner him into talking, and finally when he talked, I’d feel like, right, I’ve got him talking, that was the aim. It was totally not the aim at all. It was the wrong way to go about it altogether.

He might have talked, but he only talked because he was cornered into a place where he had no other option. That was my frustration, my own ego and pride, trying to get him to do what I wanted him to do, rather than allowing him to talk about what he needed to talk about.

That didn’t happen all the time, but there were times when I let my own needs get in the way of the conversation that should have been taking place.

Matt: I think this example you’ve just given is the right example to wrap up on.

You said that you admire Lifeline, as do I. Incredible organisation. Andrew, people like you are the people I admire. People who put effort in to improve the patch of grass they’re on, and you’re doing this in real time. You’re allowing people in to see you come to your conclusions and trying to help people as you go.

I’m sure you’ve had people reach out and let you know you’re making a difference, but I’m telling you, mate, there will be people following your journey one step behind you, and they will get so much out of what you’re trying to do to improve your patch of grass. I’ve just got respect for you.

Andrew: That’s very humbling, and I appreciate it. Thank you.

I’ve had a lot of people reach out and say that what they’ve seen in my content has made a difference to them, and that again is really humbling.

I don’t at all intend to be an authority. I’m not a clinician. I’m a dad who lost a son that he loved very, very dearly. I felt like the only way to make a difference in the wake of that was to share some of the experiences where I got it wrong and share what I’d learned so that other people could be better.

Matt: It’s admirable. Thank you.

Andrew: Pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Matt: No, thanks for coming.

Matt Breen speaks with Pip Seldon from The Healthy Tradie Project about losing her brother Dale to suicide, and how that experience shaped her mission to improve mental health outcomes in the construction industry. Together, they explore grief, vulnerability, and the practical tools helping tradies build healthier, more connected lives.

Matt Breen:
We finally teed it up. We wanted to get you on, Pip, I don’t know, maybe six months ago.

Pip Seldon:
Yeah.

Matt:
Because you’ve been involved with Yoga for Resilience, which has been a big hit with our community. But there’s a lot of other stuff you do, particularly The Healthy Tradie Project.

As I now often do in these episodes, I want to take you back to a moment in time. I want to take some words from your TED Talk:

“The 5th of September, it’s 1:00am. In the darkness of my bedroom, I’m on the floor, my head buried on my knees. I’m stunned. I’m in shock. It was just after midnight that my phone rang. Private number. I didn’t answer. Not a minute later, it rang again. And this time, it was my brother, Owen. My brother never calls me in the middle of the night. And the moment that he spoke, I knew something was terribly wrong. Bravely, but in a broken voice, he said, ‘It’s Dale. Dale has died by suicide.’”

Pip:
I don’t think it matters how much time passes. I still remember the events of that day and that night like it was yesterday.

For me, it was complete shock and disbelief to even hear those words coming out of Owen’s mouth.

Dale was our eldest brother. He was 35 at the time. He was a carpenter. He’d worked in the building industry since he was 15. He left school in Year 10, went on to do an apprenticeship and became a chippy.

He was larger than life. He had this enormous group of friends. He was this really casual tradie. From the outside, and what we all saw, he was really always enjoying life.

That moment just completely shattered my world, and that of our family. It was nothing that we ever expected we would ever face.

Matt:
I remember when I first heard about my dad. I was sitting at the top of the stairway. Similar to what you’re saying, tragedy just comes out of nowhere and hits you in the face like nothing you can imagine. It just pulls the rug out from under your feet.

What happened in the moments after you received that phone call?

Pip:
I sat literally just on the floor in the bedroom, head in my hands, just in complete shock.

Then I feel like this autopilot kicked in. I was in Canberra at the time, and my family is all in Queensland. Immediately, this autopilot kicked in: I need to get back to Queensland. I need to be back in Brisbane. I need to be there with Owen.

At the time, our parents had only a couple of weeks before left on their first grey nomad trip. They were travelling around Australia with some friends. For me, it was about booking flights and getting on that first flight out of Canberra to get back home.

I think it wasn’t until I actually got up in the air on that plane that I started to cry. That’s when it really hit me, and I felt that sense of loss.

But up until that point, I was just moving on autopilot, thinking about getting home, getting in touch with Mum and Dad, and how we find them and where they are in their travels.

Landing in Brisbane, seeing Owen, my sister-in-law, my nephews — it was very much this mode of: what needs to be done right now? And talking to those who were either with him that day, or those of his mates who were around him at that time.

Matt:
I remember the first time my tears came was when I had to speak it into existence. I heard it — my mum told me that my dad had passed — and I was shattered. But it really came through when I had to tell my mates that I had to go back home. When they asked why, and I had to tell them, I just couldn’t do it without breaking into tears.

You made your TED Talk around 10 years ago, and I can still see the tears coming up in your eyes now. Dale still lives with you today.

Pip:
He does.

I don’t think it matters how long passes. I think we begin to learn how to live with a new normal. That’s the best way I can describe it.

There are still songs that come on the radio. There are still days during the year that bring up all these emotions. There are moments where I remember him, and I remember those moments.

But there’s always a void.

As a family, we were very big on coming together for birthdays and Christmas. Certainly early on, there was this void there in our family. It was noticeable. It was obvious. You could never fill it.

For me, it was important to celebrate him. It was important to acknowledge his birthday and talk about him.

I’ve got two nephews from Owen. They were six months and two years old at the time Dale died. For them, I wanted to keep that memory alive and continue those conversations.

That’s been my biggest thing throughout all of this: continuing to talk, continuing to have the conversation and honour him.

Matt:
I do want to talk later about Dale specifically, and how you remember him and honour him. But I want to linger on that immediate aftermath.

You said you went on autopilot, but at the same time there’s almost no script you can follow. When you look back on how you and your family either came together or ventured off in your own directions, how do you reflect on how you struggled with Dale’s loss?

Pip:
I think we all dealt with it in our own individual way.

For my parents, Mum and Dad, a part of them died that day. I remember my dad saying that no parent should ever have to say goodbye to their child.

I don’t think Mum ever really could understand or come to terms with the fact that she lost her son.

Dad didn’t want to talk about it. That was his way of coping. Mum did. A bit like me, I guess.

For me, my biggest struggle was not having answers. I think that’s why I wanted to talk about it. I would talk to his mates, and the overwhelming response I got was that no one saw this coming. No one had any idea that he was struggling to that point.

That, for me, was a bit of a kick in the guts at times, because I started to see that there is so much that anyone could have done had we actually known, or had we been aware that he was having those thoughts.

Talking about it for me was a way of healing.

I went on to do Applied Suicide Intervention Skills Training, and again, that was another reminder of: gosh, these are all the things that we thought were probably just part of life. They were things that we all go through and challenges that we all face.

But for him, the compound of all those challenges was obviously putting him in a place where he felt that was the only option.

While we all had our own individual way of dealing with it, I feel like it certainly brought us closer together. Even though Dad didn’t necessarily talk about it, Mum and I did. Owen and I have become closer over the years as well.

But initially, there was probably a lot of guilt that all of us carried because we didn’t know and we didn’t see it coming. Yet we would have done anything had we had the opportunity.

Matt:
I think about it all the time. The layer of tragedy with suicide is that, as you can see with your work and how you speak about Dale, there was definitely reason for him to still be here. He was loved.

I don’t know the word for it, but the amount of pain that’s left behind, and the amount of pain that caused it — there’s a shame that there couldn’t have been that meeting point that stopped pain on both sides of that coin.

I want to talk quickly about Dale. In my own journey, similar to you, I comprehended my struggle with my dad’s passing kind of out loud. I tried to figure it out and ask questions, but I didn’t do it for nine or 10 years after the fact. I kept it all inside, and in some ways it worked, but in other ways it didn’t.

Now it’s 16 years since he passed, and I kind of forgot who he was because I didn’t address it. I didn’t square it away.

So I want to ask you: who was Dale?

Pip:
Dale was the eldest, and I’m the youngest. He was my protector growing up. He was protective of his little sister.

We had this really beautiful relationship that was different to my relationship with Owen.

He was this really casual guy. If anyone talks about being authentic, it was him. He had a saying: “I’m not out to impress.” If he wanted to rock up in his footy shorts and a pair of thongs, then that’s what he would do, because that’s what he was comfortable in.

I lived with him for a little while at one point in my life, and I always remember that every afternoon there would be people at his place. He would do anything for anyone.

If someone needed something built, he’d be there. As tradies do, there’s always this thing where no money changes hands, but there’s this labour of giving and receiving between them.

He was such a real true-blue Aussie. Rough on the exterior, but with an absolute heart of gold. Absolute heart of gold.

Matt:
Is there a moment where that heart of gold came through that comes to mind?

Pip:
He didn’t hesitate in taking me in when I needed that in my life. I’d gone through a relationship breakup, and he didn’t hesitate in saying, “Come and live with me.”

Matt:
Big brother.

Pip:
Yeah.

Matt:
It’s nice to see that he still brings joy to your eyes and makes you smile.

One of the things you did after he passed was the intervention training. You mentioned in your TED Talk that you were made aware of all the things you could have noticed if you had known.

We’ve just heard what Dale was like in the eyes of everyone at the time. But what did the people around him miss?

Pip:
I think the things that we probably thought were just normal everyday challenges that we face in life.

Certainly relationship ups and downs — on again, off again — I think that had a big part to play.

Career and work. The construction industry, particularly, goes through cycles of lots of work and not enough work, which has a huge flow-on effect to financial pressures.

Often, particularly then, you start to see alcohol coming into play, gambling, all of those behaviours.

I think there was a lot of that in the mix that was impacting him at that time.

This is me piecing together my view based on the conversations I had and what I went through, and trying to come up with an answer for myself, I guess, to find peace in hindsight.

It’s all of those things combined that I feel had a big impact and a big part to play in how he was feeling at that point in time, and perhaps seeing no way out of that. Seeing no hope.

Matt:
I remember thinking about this a while back. It’s kind of like Indiana Jones — everything’s got to line up for the tomb to be unlocked.

You’re talking about all the different things: relationships, diet, work, all of those things. If they all line up at one point in time in a bad way, it can put you in a really vulnerable state.

It’s hard to imagine someone you love in that state because you just don’t want them to be in pain.

At the same time, you’ve got to be kind to yourself because you don’t know what you don’t know. The narrative is clear now, but it was certainly not clear at the time.

My experience looking back is that, yes, I can weave a narrative together that I should have seen it coming. But me sitting at the top of the stairs in that hostel, I definitely did not see it coming one bit.

One of the things I admire about you is that you’re trying to turn your family’s tragedy and pain into prevention for others, but also in a way that honours Dale.

Pip:
In those couple of years after Dale died, and in the conversations I was having, what became really clear to me was that there is so much the everyday person can be doing to support the people around them.

We don’t have to have all the training. We don’t need to be a professional. But we can have a greater awareness first and foremost, then connect with people, have those conversations and normalise this topic.

Back then, in 2009, there was a lot less conversation around mental health and suicide prevention. It was there, but it was still a bit of a taboo topic.

For me, it was just like: gosh, we’ve got to start talking about this. We can all have an impact on someone else’s life in a positive way if we simply take the time.

In this day and age, we glorify busy. We’re all proud to be busy. But if we actually stop and take the time to really listen, and when we check in with someone, listen for the answer — notice what might be going on for them and be there for people — that can have a huge impact.

Matt:
This leads nicely into the work you do with The Healthy Tradie Project.

You talk about 2009 and the culture, or the way people spoke about mental health. I remember my dad telling me one day that he thought he was depressed. I would have been 16 or 17 at the time. I remember saying to him, “Do you really think you should go and get some help?” And he said, “No, I can’t do that. It would be the end of my career.”

There are still flavours of that today, but it is way better than what it was.

You spoke about Dale having that rugged exterior. That contrast of the emotion he would have been feeling would have almost acted like a barrier. He didn’t feel like he could expose his pain.

Pip:
The mask that he wore fooled every one of us.

That’s the thing. This façade never really let any of us see what was actually going on for him.

I think back to that period of time working in residential construction. There would never have been any conversation around mental health, emotional health or how you’re actually feeling. It just wouldn’t have happened at all.

He put on this façade and wore this mask that didn’t let any of us see what was actually going on.

Matt:
Something else is coming to me as well. You spoke about him being your big brother.

Maybe it’s a male thing, but I certainly sometimes buy into it a little bit — and I mean this with a grain of salt — there’s no time for you to struggle because you want to look after others.

Do you think that was at play? That sense of, “Don’t worry about me, I need to look after others”?

Pip:
Yeah, I think so.

He was always focused on everyone else. That’s what’s so tragic about it. He would be there for any one of his mates.

You talk to any one of his mates at any given time and they would tell you a story about the time he supported them when they were going through a rough patch. He was the one who was always there.

The sad thing is that any one of those people would have been there for him had they been able to see what he was going through. They would have done exactly for him what he did for them.

Matt:
A lot of what you’re doing now is creating an environment where people like Dale feel like they can reach for help.

Pip:
Yeah.

I started in construction in 2009. It was actually two weeks before Dale took his own life. About seven years later, I’d been in the industry and I was in New Zealand doing a project over there: the Australian Memorial in Wellington for the ANZAC Centenary.

Being a part of that project, the meaning behind that project, the collaboration between the Australian team and the New Zealand team, and that act of service really lit a fire in me.

I came back to Australia knowing my story, knowing what I’d experienced, and asked: how can I be of service to the community I stand beside every day?

For me, Dale was a blue-collar worker. I work with these people every day. How can I support them?

I knew there was lots of support when it came to crisis time — phone and text counselling services — but I came back and said, “There’s got to be so much more we can be doing a long way before that to make sure we don’t get to crisis point.”

That’s when I started looking at how we create and build really healthy and well individuals, so they’re able to recognise when things are going off track and have some tools.

Tradies and blue-collar workers are very practical people. So what are the tools we can give them that are really easy and free, but will have a massive impact on their life?

For me, it all came back to this holistic view of wellbeing. It’s movement and exercise. It’s nutrition and what we’re eating. It’s recovery and sleep. It’s play — something we do great as kids and forget about as we get older, but it’s the antidote to stress. It’s time in the sun. It’s connection and social interaction.

All of those things have a huge impact on how we show up as individuals and help keep us in a healthier mindset, physically as well.

Matt:
You’re certainly speaking to someone who agrees with you.

It’s funny you mentioned working on a meaningful project in New Zealand and wanting to find that within yourself. There was a quote that almost pushed me into R4R: “When you find your weakness, you find your purpose.”

When something leaves a mark on you, you almost can’t help but find your way to it eventually. It lights a fire and you want to do something with it.

With The Healthy Tradie Project, I can’t help but see it in similar circles, like the rugby league community. There’s this hard exterior of people, and we’re talking about the pain that’s on the soft interior, and there’s a gap there.

I believe in the importance of managing the stuff that people can’t see, but how do you bridge that gap with really practical-minded people who go, “I’ve just got to get on with it”?

Pip:
We’ve used two key tools. One of those is yoga — not that we tell them we’re doing yoga until about halfway through.

The other is breath work and mindfulness.

What I’ve found is that when we actually get people to sit down and do, or stand and do, those exercises, they come away having felt the change immediately.

Often we’ll do three minutes of a body scan meditation and the change in people is visible. The shoulders relax. Most of them turn around and go, “Gosh, I feel so much more relaxed. I’m actually really tired.”

Well, it’s probably because you need more sleep.

But they get that change in their nervous system immediately.

When we do yoga, it’s an opportunity for them to drop into their body and come out of their head. They’re not thinking about work for that 10 or 15 minutes if we do a pre-start session. They’re connecting with those around them. It’s light, it’s fun, we have a laugh.

Not only are they getting the physical benefits of stretching and starting their day in a different way, but the golden nugget is the mental health benefit. They’re not thinking about anything else other than having awareness of their body and where they’re at today.

Matt:
How do you see it ripple?

Maybe I’ve seen too many sitcoms or videos, but I can’t help but imagine the comments: “You’re not doing that yoga stuff, are you?” Then it requires the person who did it to say, “Yeah, bloody oath I am.”

It’s almost like a schoolyard hierarchy. You need strong characters to bring in those new tools and show people, “No, this works.” Then they go, “Okay, maybe I’ll give it a go.”

It’s that positive peer group pressure.

Pip:
Honestly, we often start on site and maybe 80 or 90 per cent are in there going, “Okay.” Then there are a few standing back going, “I’m not having a bar of any of that yoga bit.”

But what we find is that the 10 per cent start to look like the odd ones out.

So it becomes this positive peer group pressure. Then they might get in there and do one move, then they’ll come and do another.

When we’re going back to sites on a regular basis, it becomes the constant conversation happening on site. We might be going fortnightly, and the constant conversation is, “Is it yoga this week?”

They feel those benefits.

More often than not, there are more people taking part than those who can’t. To be honest, I feel like it’s probably ego. Particularly in that environment, they just can’t let themselves do it in case they find they can’t do a particular pose.

For me, I know the benefits of yoga. I know how great it can be, not only physically but also mentally.

So it was about: let’s take this to where they are. Let’s meet them where they’re at. I know most tradies are never going to step foot in a yoga studio. So how can we take it to them? How can we keep it light and fun, and make sure they get those benefits from it as well?

It’s been met well. It’s absolutely one of the most sought-after services that we offer. Everyone loves it.

Seeing a whole bunch of tradies in hi-vis, hard hats and boots doing yoga grabs everyone’s attention.

Matt:
There’s an element of that. It’s fun to be a part of.

I want to do a thought experiment. Imagine you rock up to a work site to do The Healthy Tradie Project, and Dale is there. How do you think he would have responded all the way back in 2009?

Pip:
Am I allowed to swear?

Matt:
Yeah.

Pip:
I think he’d probably say, “I’m still not doing that stuff.”

He probably would have been one of those ones. But I think he also would have been one of those leaders who would have brought everyone along for the ride once he realised the benefits of it. He would have had everyone in there doing the same thing.

Matt:
The way you describe him, that trait of doing your own thing regardless of the abrasiveness — I’ve got three kids, and I think it’s something you’ve got to protect.

As beautiful as it is when somebody says, “I’m not doing that,” I find that quite endearing because they’re being themselves.

But at the same time, it’s that same person who, when they see it works, says, “Alright, I’m going to do it. Oi, why won’t you do it? You’re too cool for us?”

It sounds like he would have played both sides of the fence: no at the start, yes at the end, but bringing people along.

Pip:
Yeah.

Matt:
Now, nuts and bolts of The Healthy Tradie Project. Someone is struggling in life, and they’re at work, and you come in. How does it improve that person’s position? Assuming they don’t need crisis support, how does it help them?

Pip:
At an individual level, what we’re focusing on is how we have that person showing up both at work and at home as their absolute best self.

For us, we get there through the boundaries we set around the things that are really important to us.

Exercise, first and foremost. Exercise has always been my go-to, and it’s something I need to keep me in a healthy space. So we make sure people are getting a level of movement and exercise that supports them physically and mentally.

We look at nutrition — what they’re eating, and how that affects their mood, focus, attention and energy levels.

We talk about mindset. How are they dealing with the pressures and stresses of life, not just at work but at home? They’ve often got competing priorities, financial pressures, all of those things. What practices are they putting in place to help them better cope with those pressures? That’s where we use mindfulness, breath work or meditation to help support that.

We look at sleep and how important recovery is. I think we tend to put sleep last. We focus on sleep once we’ve got everything else done that we think we need to get done for the day.

I really feel like we need to flip that narrative and make sleep a priority, because it’s when we’re getting enough sleep that we’re recovered and able to perform better the next day.

Then sun and play are the two other things we talk about.

Play is social connection, engaging with people, keeping it light, no routine, no structure, no outcome — just doing whatever it is because you enjoy that activity.

Then there’s the importance of sun and vitamin D, and how that impacts our immune system, keeps us healthy and supports our mood.

We’ve focused very much to date on those elements and that individual wellbeing — how we support people to come to work and be the best version of themselves.

That also impacts how they interact with the people around them and their team. It allows them to show up at home and be the best version of themselves, whether that’s as a husband, wife, mum, dad or family member.

Matt:
I want to get to the group aspect as well, but on that individual level, something else you mentioned in your TED Talk is that you rode from Canberra to Brisbane — 1,600 kilometres — and stopped at every Lifeline office on the way.

You said something that sticks with me. Someone came up to you and said, “Is there really help out there?”

That moves you because that’s somebody in your helpless situation.

How have you seen The Healthy Tradie Project change people like that, where they’ve gone from not knowing what to do, to having just a little bit?

Pip:
One of the biggest things that sharing my story and Dale’s story does is that it gives permission for other people to share their own.

I often find that if I go into a workplace and share that story, the amount of mostly men who come and speak to me afterwards and straight up say, “I lost this person,” or “I lost that person,” or “I experienced this,” is incredible.

It’s almost like it’s giving them permission to be vulnerable. It’s giving them permission to share, drop that façade, drop those walls and just have that conversation.

That’s a big part of it.

The other part is that it allows people to sit and look inside, and look at their own life and go, “Okay, what are the things I need to change here?”

Of that whole wheel, what’s just one thing I can focus on and do differently to help me be a better person?

Matt:
What you’re doing is incredible on an individual lens. When you see people’s shoulders relax in real time and they come up and share what they’ve been through, it’s tangible.

Even though it’s little, the cathartic release it gives them is huge. It speaks it into existence. They realise they’re not crazy, for lack of a better term, and they’re not alone.

What you’re doing is also in a part of the world where, if you’re able to get what you want done, it will permeate through society. Some of these people are the ones others look to. When things get rough, they’re the strong figureheads people attach to.

If they’re also the ones saying, “Make sure you get some sleep. Make sure you do this. Make sure you do that,” it holds more weight in some people’s eyes.

Pip:
That ripple effect is huge.

That goes on to have an effect on others, on a team and on a workplace.

Construction is an industry that relies on people, and we need to look after those people if we’re going to be successful and have longevity.

For blue-collar workers, particularly, to have longevity in their career, they need to look after themselves. They need to look after their body.

If they get to a point in time where something doesn’t work, or this hurts or that hurts, it impacts their ability to earn an income. That can then have a greater impact on their mental health as well, especially if they’re a provider for their family.

These are the stories I hear from different people.

Sometimes you get the 18, 19, 20-year-olds who are straight up in the industry and feel invincible. Nothing’s ever happened to them.

Then you get the thirty-something-year-old who has a family, a mortgage, may have gone through an injury and understands the importance of keeping themselves healthy.

And you get a real mix in the older generation. Some are old school: “No, never done that. Never going to even try it.”

But I’ll never forget a gentleman at a precast concrete factory. He was probably in his late 50s. He’d been out of work for a period of time, and they gave him an opportunity.

After the session, he told me his story. He’d come back to work and he said, “You’ve just made me realise how important it is for me to be able to look after my body. Can you print all those poses so I can put them up on the factory wall so I don’t forget them?”

For him, it was: how do I stay in the best shape I can to continue doing what I love for as long as I can?

It’s a real mix within the demographic we work with. But it’s starting to change. People are starting to realise that it’s important to look after not only yourself, but those around you and the environment we create at work.

Matt:
It is a bit of a narrative twist, isn’t it? It’s trying to help people see the reason they’re doing it.

It might not be as immediate as the alternative, but if you want to look after these people, and if you want to look after your ability to do this, you need to play a longer game and a smarter game.

I know Benny, the way he talks about nervous system health, that seems to resonate quite well with people. It’s putting things in practical terms.

Mental health can be existential. It can all be there for you to question and ponder and think about. But sometimes it’s really good to go: let’s just focus on the practical stuff for the moment, and then we’ll get to the other stuff.

The Healthy Tradie Project’s mission is zero blue-collar suicides. What does that look like? How do you get there?

Pip:
From the industry, there’s a lot that needs to shift in terms of culture and focus on wellbeing.

As an industry, we do a great job of focusing on safety and the physical aspects of safety. What I want to do is shine a spotlight on health and wellbeing.

It’s WHS for a reason, but I think we forget the H in between.

For me, it’s about how we really shine a spotlight on wellbeing, and the flow-on effect that has to safety on site.

When we have people who are in a better place from a health and wellbeing perspective, it supports our industry in not only having a safer industry, but retaining people in the industry, and building a workplace, environment or industry that people feel happy and comfortable to come and work in.

But it’s a big shift.

As an industry, it’s very much: if you’re not working, you’re not being productive. If I can’t see you out there on the tools, you’re not being productive.

The six or seven-day-a-week working conditions have got to be in the past. We’ve got to start providing people time for life. We’ve got to start giving people the opportunity to focus on health and wellbeing so that we have a healthier and happier workforce.

Matt:
Got to let the concrete set.

Pip:
Yeah, that’s a good one.

Matt:
How can people help drive that? How can they help The Healthy Tradie Project, or help in their everyday lives with the same mission?

Pip:
For business owners, it’s recognising that people are your most important asset. Ensuring they’re valued, their time is valued and they’re supported from a wellbeing perspective.

As individuals, sometimes the masses can speak the loudest. So it’s about having a voice and allowing that to be heard. Speaking up and letting employers and workplaces know what it is that you need.

At an individual level, it’s just having the conversations. Being open to talk about mental health, no different to physical health, because the two go hand in hand. They blend. We can’t have one without the other.

We just need to normalise those conversations.

Matt:
I agree with you, Pip.

Before we wrap up, this just came to me, but I think it’s the right question to finish with. If somebody is still listening to this, it means your story has resonated with them for whatever reason.

If you could go back to 2009, what do you think you’d want to tell Dale?

Pip:
I love him.

And I only wish he’d let me in.

But he made the choice that he did, and I’ll always love him.

I’ll ensure that his legacy always lives on.

Matt:
You’re a special person, Pip, and you’re doing special work. I have no doubt that you’ve already helped people like Dale, and I hope you can be proud of yourself.

I know I don’t know him, but based on what you’ve told me and what I can see, there’s no other way — he couldn’t be prouder.

Thank you.

Pip:
Thank you very much. Thank you.

R4R Podcast Transcript: Jake Trbojevic with Ben Alexander & Mark Trbojevic

Episode: In this episode of the R4R Podcast, Manly, New South Wales and Australian Rugby League legend Jake Trbojevic sits down with Ben Alexander and Mark Trbojevic.

Ben Alexander:

Welcome back to the Running for Resilience Podcast. In studio, I’m joined by the man who’s fixed my hip pain, founder of Peak Health in Canberra, back for his second episode on the pod, Mark Trbojevic. Mark, welcome.

Mark Trbojevic:

Thanks for having me back.

Ben Alexander:

Good to have you back. And joining us online is his cousin, Manly, New South Wales and Kangaroos legend, Jake Trbojevic. Jake, welcome to the pod.

Jake Trbojevic:

How are you guys? Thanks for having us.

Ben Alexander:

Mate, thank you. Thanks for fitting us in. We’ve been texting for a few months, so I’m glad we finally aligned and the stars aligned so we could do this.

Jake Trbojevic:

I know. We finally got an hour where we could all get online, so it’s worked out well.

Ben Alexander:

Get online and get aligned. Very good.

We’ll start with Mark, because you’re the one that teed this up. Why did you want to interview your cousin? You’ve obviously got some stuff you want to ask Jake, but why did you want to get him on?

Mark Trbojevic:

Obviously, in terms of Running for Resilience, it’s about the mental health side of things. I know Jakey is a bit of an emotional character when it comes to footy and just life in general.

With footy, there are many ups and downs. You go to the highest level, playing for Australia and New South Wales, and then the next week you’re getting smashed by 40.

A lot of people that Running for Resilience works with are into sport and being active. It’s just about getting a bit of insight from that elite level, and showing that everyone goes through the same thing. It doesn’t matter if you’re playing for Australia or you’re just the average Joe. Everyone’s going through the same thing, and it’s nice to see people going through it together and supporting each other.

Ben Alexander:

Awesome.

Jake, I don’t know what Mark told you about Running for Resilience, but I’ll give you the 10-second version of what we are. We are a charity trying to eliminate suicide in the ACT, and how we’re going to do that is by sharing stories that reduce stigma about talking about mental health, but also putting on as many free community events as we can.

Running events are probably what we’re best known for, but we’ve got pickleball, Yoga for Resilience and all sorts of stuff.

This podcast started as an extension from our newsletter. We started a run six years ago at The Dock, at my pub, and all these people started coming. I was saying to Brainy, the founder, “Mate, who are all these people?” They were coming up saying hello, so we started a newsletter to try and get to know people.

Now we’ve started a podcast to get to know people better and share some stories.

Jake, for the non-league fans, can you go back to your early days? What was it like being young Jake? How did you get into rugby league? Were you a sporty kid? Was rugby league the only sport you played?

Jake Trbojevic:

Firstly, I just want to say that’s unreal, what you guys are doing. Mark told me all about it, so I definitely wanted to come on here. It’s obviously a great cause, so congratulations on that.

With starting footy, when I was six my mum and dad put me into Pittwater soccer, so I played soccer for a year. I was one of those kids who was at the back playing with his shadow, never really getting involved.

Anyway, the next year, when I was seven, they put me into rugby league. I was still a little bit shy for the first few sessions. It took me a while to get into it.

Ben Alexander:

Under sevens? They tackled in under sevens?

Jake Trbojevic:

Yeah, back in the day it was tackle. Now I think they’ve changed it so they get a bit older before it becomes tackle, but back then it was.

I got into rugby league and loved it ever since.

All my brothers started playing because I was playing. They started when they were five or four or whatever. We’ve just been a rugby league family ever since. It’s been ingrained in us.

Dad was president of the Mona Vale Raiders, where we played. Mum was on the canteen. We were down there every Friday and Saturday. We loved it.

It was more than just playing your game. It was a community. That was a special part of our life, and that’s where we developed our love for rugby league.

Ben Alexander:

So you had no chance. It was league.

Jake Trbojevic:

Yeah, no chance.

Ben Alexander:

No rugby?

Jake Trbojevic:

No rugby, mate.

Ben Alexander:

What’s the Newport rugby club? The Breakers?

Jake Trbojevic:

The Warringah Rats.

Ben Alexander:

The Warringah Rats.

Jake Trbojevic:

Dad played rugby league for the Narrabeen Sharks on the Northern Beaches, and he played AFL as well for the Manly Wolves. So he tried to get us into AFL.

Tom played a little bit of AFL. It probably suited him more — tall, athletic, that sort of thing. It didn’t really suit me, all that running, so I didn’t play much AFL.

It was league and AFL, and in the summer we played cricket, but league was always our favourite. We grew up loving it. As Mark will tell you, it was literally like a religion to us.

Ben Alexander:

What was it about league that you loved?

Jake Trbojevic:

Obviously the mates you make.

When I talk about Mona Vale Raiders, it was more than the game you played. Friday night, everyone trained. The whole club trained down there. Dad was always on the barbecue, so first there, last to leave.

Then Saturday morning, we’d go down and set the field up. As we got older, our game got later. We’d play the game whenever, then watch every other game and be down there the whole day at Newport Oval.

It was really special to us. We met so many great people. Obviously you play your game and want to do well, but then you watch every other grade. It was really special and we just loved it.

Ben Alexander:

Okay, so you’re indoctrinated at a young age.

Did you play league at school? What was your path into the NRL? Did you get signed straight out of school?

Jake Trbojevic:

I went to Pittwater High, so it wasn’t a sports school, just a local high school in Mona Vale.

We didn’t really play much school sport, but I was in the Manly development squads. Through there I progressed into the Harold Matthews, which was under 16s at the time, then the SG Ball and then under 20s.

I was really lucky. We grew up in Mona Vale, played our local juniors there, played our rep juniors for Manly, and then we all played first grade for Manly.

When I say “we all”, I mean me and my brothers. It’s been a really nice, seamless journey for us. We’ve never had to leave the Northern Beaches. It’s been really special, and we’re actually very lucky.

Mark Trbojevic:

From the get-go, your tackles were insane. I remember watching grand final after grand final. You would be smashing players and winning every year for the Mona Vale Raiders.

Tommy would come on and score five tries every year. From the start, you could see you guys had talent.

Jake Trbojevic:

We loved it.

I had the same coach from under sevens right through to under 17s at Mona Vale. He was unreal. He taught us so much from a young age. He was passionate about the game and gave us a great understanding of it.

As we got older and started playing Sundays, he coached some of my younger brothers as well, like Tom, Luke and Ben. We all learned tackle technique and fundamentals from him.

Tom had the natural talent. He was scoring tries every time he touched the ball from a young age.

It gave us a really good base and we just loved it.

Ben Alexander:

What surprised you early on in the NRL when you finally made it to the big leagues?

Jake Trbojevic:

The first time I played, I’d been in under 20s all year and debuted in round 26 of 2013. Manly were already comfortably in the top four, so Geoff Toovey rested a heap of players.

Me and Clint Gutherson debuted on the same day.

I played about 10 minutes and honestly I’d never been so tired. The pace of the game, the physicality, and the nervous energy — I couldn’t believe it.

I remember waking up that morning thinking, “Oh God, it’s here. There’s no hiding now.”

Ben Alexander:

You would have been pacing back and forth.

Jake Trbojevic:

I was very anxious. Very, very anxious.

I don’t think that really changed my whole career either.

But it was a very special day at Brookie in front of all our family and friends. Looking back, the thing that shocked me most was just the pace and physicality of the game.

After about five minutes I was thinking, “I’ve got to go off. This is too hard.”

Ben Alexander:

What are some of the highs of your career?

Jake Trbojevic:

What’s been really special for me is getting to play with my brothers.

Me and Tom started playing together really young. Tom’s first game was my fifth game, so we almost took it for granted.

Then Ben debuted later on, and when all three of us finally started a game together and Ben scored two tries, that’s when it really hit me how special it was.

Seeing Ben come through, fight his own battles and make his own way into first grade made me really proud.

Captaining the Blues in 2024 was another huge one. That was really special. Very surprising, very unexpected, but a true honour.

And then there was the 2019 Origin decider when Tedesco scored on the bell. I’ve honestly never been so happy.

Queensland had done that to us so many times over the years, and then finally we did it back to them.

The 2024 series win in Queensland was really special too. It hadn’t been done in a long time.

Mark Trbojevic:

Speaking about the highs, there have obviously been lows too.

I remember the Souths semi-final where you got sin-binned and then you guys lost.

How do you get through those moments and get up for the next game?

Jake Trbojevic:

I haven’t done it well, to be honest.

That’s something I’ve struggled with throughout my career.

The NRL season is a rollercoaster. As I’ve got older, I’ve got better at handling it, but I still struggle with the ups and downs.

The biggest thing I’ve worked on is perspective.

At the end of the day, it is just a game. All you can do is go out and do your best.

Sometimes I get jealous of teams like Penrith that just seem to win every week. It would make life easier.

But footy can be draining. It’s very rewarding and very special, but when things aren’t going well it can be really tough on you mentally.

Ben Alexander:

How does Manly and the NRL approach the mental side of the game?

Jake Trbojevic:

From a performance perspective, that’s mostly club-based.

We’ve got a mental skills coach at Manly, Andrew May, and he’s been really good.

The big thing is understanding that everyone is different. One framework doesn’t fit everyone.

We work on things like pre-performance routines, trigger words, breathing, mindset shifts and how to respond when things go wrong.

We talk about low performance mindset and optimal performance mindset.

When something goes wrong in a game, it’s about how quickly you can flick the switch and move onto the next job.

Some people use breathing. Some people stomp their feet. Some people look into the crowd.

For me, I dwell on things. I don’t really have a physical reset. I just have to tell myself, “I’m filthy that happened, but I still want to finish this game well.”

Ben Alexander:

Our trigger phrase was “next job”.

Jake Trbojevic:

Exactly.

What’s happened already isn’t going to help you moving forward.

Ben Alexander:

Something I’ve noticed with Manly is after tries, the team groups together and does breathing work.

Jake Trbojevic:

I think it’s really good.

It lowers your heart rate and resets everyone.

I’m someone who gets very emotional after tries — either excited or angry — and the breathing allows you to calm down, reset, listen to the captain and focus on what’s next.

Mark Trbojevic:

It gets everyone back on the same page.

Ben Alexander:

What’s the support like for life after footy?

Jake Trbojevic:

The support is really good.

We’ve got wellbeing officers, education officers, funded courses, university support and all sorts of things.

I’ve tried studying counselling and school teaching over the years because I realised I enjoy helping people.

I didn’t manage it particularly well alongside full-time footy, but the opportunity is definitely there.

It’s just hard balancing it all.

Nothing really prepares you for the end of a long professional career. That part is scary.

Ben Alexander:

I think one of the hardest parts for athletes is separating themselves as a person from themselves as a footballer.

Jake Trbojevic:

That’s a huge one.

We’ve done a program called Find Your Feet with Tommy Herschell, and it’s been unreal.

It helps you understand people more and separate yourself as a footballer from yourself as a person.

That’s something I’ve got a lot of value out of.

For me, perspective is realising that while rugby league is really important to me, I’m also a husband, a son and a brother.

That stuff matters more.

I remember one day after a really bad loss, I came home devastated.

I walked through the door and my two Staffies went absolutely ballistic because they were so happy to see me.

I remember thinking, “You know what? Life’s all good.”

At least my dogs love me. My wife loves me. My parents love me.

That’s what’s helped me.

Mark Trbojevic:

Who helps you get through those moments?

Jake Trbojevic:

Definitely my wife Alex.

I come home devastated and we’ll talk about it, then move on.

My parents have always been supportive too.

And it’s huge having brothers who play alongside me because we go through the same highs and lows together.

I’ve also found a lot of value in seeing professionals.

The NRL gives us that support, and it’s been really important for me.

Mark Trbojevic:

You touched on social media earlier.

How do you deal with the criticism and media attention?

Jake Trbojevic:

Honestly, I don’t go on social media anymore.

I decided years ago that I just wasn’t going to do it.

If you play well, people tell you you’re great. If you play badly, people spray you.

I know I’m doing my best. I know my worth.

For me, getting off social media was one of the best things I’ve done for my mental health.

Last week there was apparently a lot of stuff in the media about me, but I genuinely had no idea because I don’t look at any of it.

And honestly, if no one had messaged me about it, I still wouldn’t have known.

Ben Alexander:

That’s the thing. People say things online they’d never say to your face.

Jake Trbojevic:

Exactly.

A lot of the time they don’t understand what you’re working on or what your role is.

And if someone’s going online just to try and make you feel bad, I think that says more about them than it does about you.

Mark Trbojevic:

You’ve had a few concussions over the last few years.

How does the club support you mentally coming back from injuries like that?

Jake Trbojevic:

They definitely support you physically.

We looked at my tackle technique and realised my feet were getting into the wrong position, which put my head in the wrong position.

I worked really hard on neck strength as well because there’s science behind stronger neck muscles potentially helping reduce the impact.

Then there’s the headgear.

Mentally, there are always people around the club who can help.

And being in a team environment helps too because the boys really get around injured players.

But long rehabs are hard. If you’re out for six months with an ACL or something, it’s a grind.

Ben Alexander:

That connection with teammates is such a huge part of sport.

When I look back on my career, the biggest memories are the people.

Jake Trbojevic:

Absolutely.

That’s what makes it special.

Ben Alexander:

What would you tell a young player coming into the NRL?

Jake Trbojevic:

Enjoy it.

Sometimes the pressure and overthinking can take over.

But when you’re mentally feeling good and enjoying yourself, that’s when you play your best footy.

We’re lucky enough to get paid to do what we love.

Go out there, have fun and enjoy it.

Mark Trbojevic:

What’s the biggest difference between the Manly team when you debuted and the current team?

Jake Trbojevic:

Those older teams were just winners.

You could see how tight they were and how much they cared about each other.

I learned a lot about what the club was built on from those guys.

Ben Alexander:

What is Manly built on?

Jake Trbojevic:

Hard work and passion.

The Manly community is really tight. Everyone backs each other.

Those old teams played by a code. They were incredibly loyal to one another and really close both on and off the field.

That’s what made them such a great side.

Ben Alexander:

We’ve got some listener questions.

Glenn from Moruya asks: “If you and all your brothers entered a ring, who would be the last man standing?”

Jake Trbojevic:

If it’s wrestling or grappling, I’d be very hard to beat.

But if it’s boxing, Luke would probably flog us all because he’s actually a bit of a boxer.

Ben Alexander:

Matt from Bermagui asks: “What’s doing with the headgear?”

Jake Trbojevic:

After last year, I was willing to try everything.

The old headgear was mainly for protecting your ears.

This newer one has actual padding and there’s research behind it about reducing force and brain acceleration.

I’m not out there trying to win a fashion contest.

I’m trying to protect my head.

And if me wearing it encourages other players to give it a go too, then that’s a good thing.

Ben Alexander:

How do players feel about the NRL’s approach to concussion?

Jake Trbojevic:

I think the NRL is doing a really good job.

There are independent doctors watching every tackle.

If there’s any sign of concussion, the player comes straight off for assessment.

If there are obvious signs of concussion, you’re ruled out immediately and miss at least 11 days.

The game has changed a lot.

Years ago, guys would get concussed and just go straight back on.

I think now they’re taking it really seriously while still trying to keep the game flowing.

Mark Trbojevic:

The research around concussion has come a long way in the last 10 or 15 years.

Ben Alexander:

Jake, last question.

Who should we get on the R4R Podcast next?

Jake Trbojevic:

Someone like Gus Worland from Gotcha4Life would be awesome.

Or Tommy Herschell from Find Your Feet.

I reckon you’d love both of those conversations.

Ben Alexander:

Done.

Mark, anything else?

Mark Trbojevic:

Hopefully you get a win next week.

Jake Trbojevic:

Tell me about it.

You know what’s good for mental health? Winning every week.

Mark Trbojevic:

And post-win beers.

Jake Trbojevic:

Exactly.

Nothing better than beers in the sheds after a win.

Ben Alexander:

Jake Trbojevic, mate, you’re a legend.

Awesome to meet you.

If you’re ever in Canberra, hit us up.

Jake Trbojevic:

Thanks for having us, guys. Appreciate it.

Ben Alexander:

Go the Eagles.

Jake Trbojevic:

Go Manly.

In this episode of the R4R Podcast, Lili sits down with John and James from The Sunday Sippers. In this chat, the team cover everything from 100km efforts to how the Sunday Sippers started.

Lili:
Hey, welcome to the Running for Resilience podcast. My name is Lili, and this is my first time hosting.

I’ve been assured that I have full creative control over today’s episode, which — I don’t know — we’ll see how that goes.

I’m very excited to be here today. For the listeners who tune in regularly, you may recall that a few months ago I did my own podcast with Matt. When he asked me who I’d like to interview on this podcast, I was very quick to say Kim Kardashian.

So when I got the call-up to host, you can imagine my excitement. I started preparing questions on Skims, the Met Gala and Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

Anyway, it’s safe to say that all those questions are probably very irrelevant, because our guests today are none other than The Sunday Sippers boys, John and James.

Welcome to the podcast.

James:
Thank you very much.

John:
You can’t get any further than Kim Kardashian and us, I think.

Lili:
That’s better than Kim Kardashian, really. Hopefully.

John:
I hope so. I’m very honoured to be on the podcast. Thank you so much. Thanks for choosing us.

Lili:
For the listeners who don’t know who you are, would you like to introduce yourselves and explain a bit about what The Sunday Sippers is?

James:
My name’s James, firstly.

John:
I’m John. John Vlados.

James:
And yeah, we’re The Sunday Sippers, apparently.

John:
We are The Sunday Sippers.

James:
John’s not too happy that I didn’t wear any Sunday Sippers gear today.

John:
He’s full rep. Full ambassador role here, mate.

James:
I have the colours on.

John:
You’ve got the colours right, at least.

James:
But yeah, The Sunday Sippers — I guess we are a podcast slash community-led brand, is probably the best way to describe it.

John:
We’re laughing because we don’t really know what we are, honestly.

Lili:
What inspired you to start it, and how long ago was that?

James:
The backstory is that John and I have known each other for a while. We went to school together in different grades, but we probably didn’t like each other for a long time there.

Lili:
That’s how all good friendships start, though.

James:
Yeah. We were in two different friendship groups. My mates had younger brothers in his year, so we always knew of each other, but never really got along. Never really liked each other.

For some reason, we had a lot of the same interests. We followed a brand called YKTR, who created content, and we really liked the idea of creating content. We weren’t really sure how to do that, but something clicked between us.

I remember it was at a house party — a New Year’s Eve house party — and I pulled John aside. You know when you’re going around to your friends saying that you love them and good luck for next year? I said to John, “Look, I don’t know what you’re going to be doing, mate, but I know you’ve got something big in store for you. Really rip in and take it with both hands.”

From that point, we started talking more and diving into different stuff. Then we had this idea to create a podcast called The Sunday Sippers.

John:
I remember it was a Sunday afternoon, and James was actually driving back from Victoria. He’s got family there, and he sent me a long voice message saying, “Look, I don’t know what’s clicked with me right now, but it’s a Sunday morning, I’m having my coffee, and I’m driving back home. Why don’t we just start a podcast named Sunday Sippers? We can get together on a Sunday, sip our coffees and talk about whatever we want to talk about.”

That’s essentially how it was created.

At the time, we had no idea what we were going to talk about or what we were going to do, but we always wanted to document our journey. That journey has turned into fitness and endurance now, but at the time it was just kind of whatever and everything.

James:
Bacon and egg roll reviews.

John:
Yeah, we went through that.

It was a pretty funny beginning. I think the best thing about it was that we always had good intentions behind it. We just wanted to do it because it was fun, and it’s always been fun. It’s never been a chore.

That’s how it started, and now we’ve ended up here.

I was saying to James on the way here, we started Sunday Sippers when we were 23 and 21. Now James is 26, turning 27, and I’m 25. So I feel like there’s been a lot of growth in that time, and a lot of time as well.

Lili:
Absolutely. And now you’re both obviously quite into fitness, and that’s what The Sunday Sippers has evolved into. How do you think that transition came about — from the bacon and egg roll reviews to doing Ironman?

James:
I was looking back on our Instagram in preparation for this, and it’s actually pretty good to look back on the growth of us as individuals and the podcast.

For me, I started running because I had a shoulder reconstruction. That basically got me out of footy and into running.

One of the first things I did, just before we started Sunday Sippers, was the 4x4x48 challenge. That really clicked something in me. I thought, “There’s something more to this than just going about your training. There’s something in really trying to push yourself.”

John resonates with that a lot as well.

When we started Sunday Sippers, there was a lot of different stuff going on in those first few years, but there was always that pillar of having something. We did the 4x4x48 together as well, and we found a lot in setting these challenges and achieving them. I think that’s been a massive catalyst for who The Sunday Sippers are.

John:
When you did that first challenge, you raised money as well.

James:
Yeah, I think the first one was for Cancer Council.

John:
That was definitely our first introduction to doing something hard, but also doing something bigger than yourself.

When we did it together, we raised money for Lifeline. I guess we always just kind of band those two things together: doing something difficult because we think it’s a good thing to do for ourselves, but also using that as a platform to raise funds or awareness for a cause.

The foundation of Sunday Sippers has always been doing something difficult or pushing yourself for the betterment of yourself and others.

I think a big year for us was 2023. That would have been probably the second year of Sunday Sippers. At the start of that year, we signed up to a bunch of events. James had done his first marathon on his birthday, just randomly around the lake.

James:
Yeah, I just ran from my house down to the lake. Dad was following me on a bike, and my brothers were there for a little bit as well. It was quite funny.

John:
When James did that first 4x4x48 challenge, I think I joined in for maybe six of the runs and I found it quite difficult. Seeing James get up at 4am and 8am and all those crazy times, it clicked for me that this was something we really enjoyed doing.

We signed up to a lot of events at the start of 2023. James did a few triathlons. We did the Canberra Marathon. Then, stupidly enough, I think a week after the Canberra Marathon, James and I created our own Three Peaks Marathon, where we ran up Mount Majura, Mount Ainslie and Black Mountain across the night.

James:
Even tougher.

John:
It was Anzac Day Eve. The idea was that we wanted to roll into the dawn service, which we did. It was probably the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I was so underprepared and my body wasn’t really up for it.

But that was the momentum we were building.

Then we went on a Europe trip together that year for about four months. I think we both had a good feeling that we’d started the year really well, we were building something with Sunday Sippers, and we wanted to come back from Europe and build on that momentum.

We got back from Europe, and then we both did Ironman for the first time, and then the 100K, and so on. I feel like it’s always been a massive ball of momentum.

James:
There’s always been something more. We’d complete something and then go, “What’s next?” It’s great that we both have that mindset. That’s probably the pillar behind how we’ve built it into doing a few Ironmans and things like that.

Lili:
I was just saying before, if you run around the lake on a weekend, there are a lot of Sunday Sippers hats and shirts getting around. The community has obviously grown heaps. Do you think it’s because of that momentum — that people want to get involved and push themselves and realise they’re stronger than they think?

James:
I was down there this morning and I saw six or seven hats.

Lili:
They would have been very excited to see the founding father there.

James:
It was good. I was in the hurt locker, so they probably weren’t that excited to see me.

Those early challenges were huge. We did the fundraisers and everyone jumped on the back of us — our family and friends, people we knew, and people we sort of didn’t know. They got behind us.

I think it probably comes down to the fact that we’re pretty open and honest. If you go through all the podcasts, we’re very true to ourselves. People resonate with that.

We’re two very average footy players — one average, one above average — who started with a 5K and slowly chipped away. That’s something I really hang my hat on. I haven’t just gone straight to the hardest thing. It’s always been slowly chipping away. I think people get a lot from seeing that slow build.

John:
It’s similar to R4R, and probably why we have such a strong connection with R4R. The foundation is that good people attract good people.

As James said, all our friends and family have got behind us. We both feel very lucky to have the friends and family we do. Even though a lot of our closest friends might think some of the things we’re doing are a little bit silly and they don’t really understand it, they still get behind us and support us. That’s a really special thing.

The broader Canberra community has seen what we’re doing. We’re never trying to do anything that’s not ourselves. We’re just doing things we enjoy and believe in.

We’re thankful that people around Canberra have really got behind it. It’s been such an awesome thing because we’ve made so many more friendships and connections with people that we probably wouldn’t have if we didn’t start this.

We’re actually only doing our first ever social run tomorrow, which we probably should have done in the past, but the events we’ve done together or with Sippers have been such a good opportunity to connect with new people.

I think people who believe in community and getting behind people who are doing good things are attracted to that. It’s a similar vibe to R4R.

Lili:
That’s it. The running community in Canberra is full of so many groups that are quite like-minded. It’s about community. That’s obviously what Running for Resilience is all about — coming together, getting a bit of exercise in, but mainly about the connection you can make with people, either during or afterwards.

It’s amazing to see how the communities can help each other and build. There’s really something for everyone.

John:
There are never too many communities or groups doing good things. A rising tide raises all ships.

It’s good seeing other people doing things. R4R has grown exponentially. When we first started going, there might have been 50 people on a Wednesday night. Now it’s crazy how that group has grown.

The R4R mission of making the ACT suicide free by 2033 is built on banding together and making sure the message is known. There are more people and groups that you can rely on and connect with.

What James and I love most about Sippers is that we’re part of that. We’ve created our own community that people can be part of. There are so many little subgroups and connections that have formed because of it. It’s the same with R4R — so many little communities and running groups coming together for the same purpose: to get out there, be active, support positive mental health and feel connected to people.

Lili:
Moving your body is something that only recently clicked for me, which sounds silly because I’ve run pretty much my whole life. I did it for physical health. You think running is good to keep you fit and healthy, but it’s so good for your mind.

It doesn’t have to be running — any kind of movement can really clear the mind if you’re going through a tough patch. That’s what Running for Resilience is trying to do. They’re branching out to yoga and boot camps and racket sports, paddleboarding — everything. It doesn’t have to be running. Moving your body is good for your mind as well as your physical health.

James:
Definitely. Since we started training more in the triathlon space, as soon as I finish an event and have a couple of weeks off, when I’m not training as much, you get a bit itchy.

John:
Yeah, you do.

James:
You get a bit down. It’s confusing because you’ve completed something, but not being active all the time definitely weighs down on you.

That’s why I love the toughness of Ironman training. There’s always something to do. Every afternoon you can get out and go for a swim, a ride or a run. It takes your mind off other things and gets you thinking about each session.

John:
In your 20s, you create so many good memories with your friends doing all sorts of things, but some of the best memories I have are from when James and I were doing our first Ironman prep.

Every Sunday morning we would do our long ride. Usually in an Ironman prep you do the ride on Saturday and the run on Sunday, but James would always work on Saturdays as a sparky. So we swapped the days around and did the long ride on Sunday.

There was usually a group of three to six of us, depending on who was coming. James has to wake up at 5am every day during the week because he’s working as a tradie, but then he has to get up and train as well.

Those Sunday morning long rides with our mates were really hard, but they are probably the best memories I have of training. You’d connect with people for five hours at some points.

Exercise is good for your mind and body, but the social aspect — which R4R is massive on — is such a key component of movement and exercise.

Lili:
Absolutely. I thought I had an injury a few weeks ago, so I didn’t run for a few mornings. Running with friends is the absolute best way to start the day for me. If I sleep in, I always don’t feel as good as if I’d got up and seen some mates.

That week — and I’m being dramatic because it was three days — really showed me how much better my mood is and how much better my day is set up if I’ve got out with some friends, had a chat and had a laugh before carrying on with the day.

John:
I was thinking about R4R in that sense as well. I used to think about footy training. Benny has talked about this too — never wanting to go to footy training, especially in a Canberra winter. But you’d always come home feeling really good because you had that social aspect and you’d worked hard with like-minded people.

R4R is the same. You might not always want to go, but you come back from it and it’s the highlight of your week.

Lili:
That’s it. Sometimes you finish work and, if you don’t work near Kingston, you think, “I could just run at home, it would be so much quicker.” But you always leave in a much better mood than when you started.

John:
How do you do it? You run nearly every morning, right? Are you pretty good at not sleeping in? I’ve been in such a rut of waking up so tired and just sleeping in, then regretting it all day.

Lili:
We were laughing with some friends the other day because you set the alarm, it goes off, then you send the message saying, “Sorry, not coming,” and then you just lie in bed not sleeping for an hour, regretting that you didn’t get to sleep in and you also didn’t get out.

I’m a lot better when I’m going to meet someone because there’s that accountability. Having said that, people do receive messages from me at 5:45 saying, “Guys, not coming.” But I try. I just remember how I feel when I do get up, and the fact that I’m probably not going to go back to sleep anyway, so I may as well.

John:
That’s a good point. It’s just hard in Canberra winters. It’s been particularly cold this year. Tomorrow it’s meant to be minus five or something, so that’s good for the social run.

Lili:
You mentioned that you both do these really long endurance events. For listeners who don’t know, John ran 100Ks around the lake last year and raised money for Running for Resilience.

First of all, thank you. That was incredible. I love running, but the thought of 100K — I don’t know about that.

What inspired you to do 100K and link up with Running for Resilience?

John:
The bloke next to me inspired me to run 100K.

James:
Yeah.

John:
Because he did it the year beforehand, in December 2023.

Lili:
Side note, you picked a bad time of year to do it because it was really hot.

James:
Yeah, it was a tough day. I think it was the 23rd of December.

Lili:
I did a little bit of looking at your Instagram yesterday and thought, good on you, but 23rd of December, heavy cotton T-shirts…

James:
We really had no idea.

John:
That’s what I love about Sippers. It’s very cowboy. We never have the best plan, but we just make it work.

James:
As we were saying before, 2023 was a big year for us. The first half of the year was really busy. We had that Europe trip planned as well. I had a self-proclaimed world tour, where I basically travelled nearly everywhere.

I did a 70K run before I left.

John:
What was the point of that?

James:
To sleep on the plane.

Running for me slowly built up. I did my first marathon, then I did a 50K, and then I knew I was going to Europe. I thought, “I’m probably not ready for 100 yet, so I’ll just go do a 70 and see how we go.”

I ticked it off. When I came back, we got in touch with our coach to start the Ironman prep, but I wanted to tick off the 100K before I started doing Ironman training.

I think it was eight weeks after coming back from Europe. It was a little bit sloppy, but I was ready for it.

I wanted to raise money for the Mark Hughes Foundation. I lost my uncle to brain cancer, so that was close to my heart. Like we said, with all the other challenges we’d done, the Sippers community really got behind us. They did so tenfold with this announcement as well.

It was about pushing myself, but it was also about showing people in my family, my friends and our close community that if you set out to do something, you can achieve it.

Running 100Ks would have felt so far-fetched a few years ago, but it was just slowly chipping away. Once you set a task and say you’re going to do something, following that through takes you on to the next challenge as well.

I’m glad it ticked something in Johnny’s brain to take it on.

Lili:
You’ve almost ticked something in my brain.

Do you think announcing it publicly gives you that level of accountability? Not that it would matter if you didn’t complete the 100K, but once you say publicly that you’re going to do it, do you think that makes you do the work to make sure you can?

James:
Yeah. I think that’s the biggest step.

I remember in Ned Brockmann’s book he talked about announcing he was going to do the 50 marathons. That was one of the biggest steps, because as soon as you announce it, it’s a lot on your character. You’re going to go out there and try to achieve it, no holds barred. You’re going to do everything in your power to get it done, especially when you’re fundraising and people are backing you.

John:
I think Ned is like this, and we’ve probably adopted it from him a little bit. Once you say you’re going to do it, you’re just going to do it regardless. There’s no way out.

I definitely felt that when I committed to doing the 100K with R4R. There was a massive focus for me not just to raise funds, but to spread awareness about what R4R is.

Once you put it out there, in my mind there was no way it wasn’t getting done.

James did his 100K in December. We did Ironman halfway through the year in May, which was really awesome. I had a bit of time off, and the 100K was always in the back of my mind.

I wasn’t sure how it would work with raising money for R4R. I think I’d inquired about it around the same time someone else was doing something similar, but at the time R4R wasn’t a charity, so they couldn’t take funds.

Then at the start of 2024, R4R became a formal charity and it worked out really well. I reached out to Breeny, Benny and Shooter and said, “This is what I want to do in November. I’d love to raise funds and make it a big R4R event.”

The community had grown so much, and James and I had been part of it for a few years. We decided on 100K because it was the same thing James had done.

My running journey has been very similar to James’s. I stopped playing footy and wanted something to keep myself fit.

The first time I ever ran a 5K — and I’m real OCD with my Strava, I don’t want to finish on .9 or anything like that — I think it was pretty much my first ever proper run. Anything before that was just footy conditioning on an oval.

My first kilometre was like 3:55 or something for a 5K.

Lili:
Pretty impressive.

John:
I’ll tell you what, I was hot. Then after that it was like 5:30, 6:00, 6:30.

James:
That’s a long way home.

John:
It was the classic lake bridge-to-bridge run, and my ankles were swollen afterwards because I had these massive Asics that were probably not even built for running.

It was a different build back then. I’d come from playing footy. I found it really difficult, but there was a part of me that loved the challenge of it.

So I kept at it. I did three 5Ks a week, slowly building. Then I did a half marathon, then a marathon, then locked into the 100K. I had a good 16-week build for that after Ironman.

Lili:
So you did it properly.

John:
Yeah. Luckily, by that point we had our coach Gav. Shout out Gav — one of the greats.

I’m not a naturally gifted runner, so I wanted to make sure I gave it enough respect. James and I are quite different. James is very cowboy and just gets things done no matter what. I’m a bit more precious, you could say. I feel like I need to have the perfect plan to do everything.

The whole eight weeks prior, after we announced it, was really good. Working with R4R, promoting it on our channels and creating the content and production around it was awesome.

Lili:
You had a massive community come out on the day. I know you did for your run as well the year before. It’s amazing that people wanted to support you.

Did having people around you help you keep going? Because I’ve never done 100K, but I imagine it would get tough at several points.

John:
It was incredibly special. Most of the community is our really good friends, alongside the people who have joined in and the connections we’ve made.

If I was doing that by myself, I don’t even know if I would finish it, honestly. I’ve spoken to Matthew Breen about it — it really felt like I was being lifted by everyone that day.

I wasn’t giving anyone much. I wasn’t really talking.

Lili:
That’s all right. You’re allowed to not give people much when you’re doing 100K.

John:
Yeah, blinkers. But I definitely felt it. There was something a bit more spiritual about it, or just the energy. I definitely felt lifted by everyone.

James:
It was probably one of the most special things I’ve been part of, even just witnessing it. I was riding around on the bike most of the day, but the last 10K, when lots of people from R4R came down and joined in, was amazing.

Johnny was trotting in at the front, and there was this massive line of people going back 50 to 100 metres. It was a very special day.

Those are the moments where you take it in and go, “How cool is this community, that this many people will come out and support one individual trying to make a difference?”

We both feel very lucky that we started Sippers and can do things like that. We didn’t set out to do it because of those moments, but the fact that we’ve had them — James’s 100K, my 100K and everything in between — those are things you’ll hold with you for the rest of your life.

Running 100Ks, or completing any kind of endurance event, is something to be really proud of. You have to dig deep, not only in the training but on the day.

Lili:
Now that you’ve done quite a few of those big events, do you think in other areas of your life you can look back and say, “I can get through this because I’ve run for 10 and a half hours”?

John:
It’s funny because when we say we’ve done an Ironman, it probably sounds better if it took longer. Like if you say it took 16 hours, people think, “That’s amazing — 16 hours of moving.”

But yes, for sure. It’s slowly chipping away and becoming more resilient.

I still look back and laugh. My goal in running years ago was to run a 20-minute 5K. There were five or six attempts in a row where I would stop at 3K and have to walk home.

To look back on that now, it’s all about slowly chipping away and building resilience.

There are so many parts of my life where that transfers. Work-wise, I’ve just started an electrical business, and you need to be resilient. You need to not crumble or let things get to you.

R4R, and training for endurance events, is about showing up. For R4R, it’s once a week. For endurance training, it’s just getting to the pool. Once you’re at the pool, you’ll get in and do the session.

That transfers into life. You just have to be willing to show up, and then you’ll either get things done or work out a way.

Lili:
Running and endurance have become a lot more popular over the last few years. I’ve been a running nerd forever, and I remember when I was a teenager having to sneak into Rebel Sport because that’s where I got my shoes, and I didn’t want anyone to see me going in there because it wasn’t cool.

Now it’s so fun that it is popular and people can see how beneficial it is.

I think maybe COVID kickstarted a lot of people, but there’s also a growing value placed on health and making sure we are resilient and can take on life’s challenges.

John:
It sounds a bit cheesy or cliché, but running — a marathon, for example — is such a good metaphor for life.

You start off feeling amazing. You feel really fit because you’ve done the prep. Then halfway through, you have a few little doubts because you’re feeling worse than you thought you would. Then you hit the wall at 30K and you’re really struggling. Then you’re only 3K out and you can see the end.

It’s such a rollercoaster, no matter how fit you are. Whether it’s your first marathon or your 10th, you’re always experiencing that rollercoaster.

It’s such a representation of life. So much is out of our control, so you can only control your response and how you feel.

That’s truly why I like doing endurance. Having a good time is great and improving is great, but it’s more about the rollercoaster it takes you on and how that helps you take on life’s challenges.

It’s very important to do hard things in life.

James:
If we always took the easy route, it probably wouldn’t be as sweet. Doing a hard prep for a marathon or Ironman is difficult at the time, but when you cross the finish line, it’s very rewarding.

John:
I’m laughing because pretty much every time James and I have had an event — the 4x4x48s, the marathons, the 100Ks — the week before always seems to be the most chaotic week of our lives.

James is moving house. I have final uni exams. There are so many different things going on, and we always laugh and say, “Why are we doing this?”

James:
It’s almost like getting to the start of the race is the relaxing part. All the chaos is done.

There have been a lot of voice messages between us saying, “I just can’t wait until I’m 60K deep and in that much pain.”

Lili:
That sentence in itself is quite unique.

James:
It’s a bit sick, isn’t it?

Lili:
It’s like we do all these endurance events, and at the end of the day, we’re not professional athletes. We’re doing it for ourselves and for what it teaches us and how it helps us move forward in life.

How many marathons have you done?

Lili:
I think Sydney Marathon will be my eighth.

James:
Have they always been events?

Lili:
No. I did a couple during COVID because there was nothing else to do.

The marathon is a tough one. I’ve had some stinkers where you think, “Why am I doing this?” But you keep coming back.

James:
It’s very addictive.

Lili:
It is. It’s a weird, addictive thing to keep doing.

James:
It’s the greatest distance, the marathon. It’s so hard, no matter what level you’re on. If it’s your first marathon, it’s probably the hardest thing you’ve ever done. Even as you progress and get quicker, it’s still that distance where you’re sitting right on a hard level for three or four hours.

Are you guys doing Sydney?

John:
I’m not.

James:
No. There’s a potential ticket I could get. If I could get my hands on one, I would do it, because that’s what I did last year. But we don’t have tickets.

Lili:
Even though I was told I had to time this, and I was given one very clear job, I haven’t done it. I’m not sure how long we’ve been going, but I think we might be ready to wrap it up.

I just want to finish by asking: obviously, I put it out into the world that I would like to interview Kim Kardashian. It hasn’t happened yet. Who would you like to see on this podcast?

James:
Great question.

John:
With Sydney in two weeks, probably Kipchoge.

James:
That would be huge. Get him on the mic.

John:
We’ll see what we can do.

James:
It’d be cool to get Rocky on.

John:
Yeah, I was going to say that. Or Ned Brockmann. That would be really cool.

James:
We’ve been lucky enough to have him on ours twice.

Lili:
Well, we might have to go through you.

John:
Yeah. Brocky would be a good one for R4R. He’s been such a massive inspiration to both of us, so that would be cool.

Lili:
It would be very cool.

John:
But thank you very much for having us on. We’re both very honoured to be on the R4R podcast. It’s a much more professional setup than what we have.

We’ve done about 160 episodes, I think, and this is the most serious we’ve ever had. We’re very grateful for the opportunity.

Lili:
Massive thanks, and thanks for making the time this weekend. We might see you at the start line at Sydney.

James:
Thank you.

John:
Thank you.

R4R Podcast: Jess Peil with Mark Trbojevic

Recorded at Lonsdale Street Studio.

At Lonsdale Street Studio, we believe in the power of storytelling to connect people and create change. That’s why we’re proud to be the production partner for the Running for Resilience podcast.

Transcript

Jess Peil: Here we are, another R4R podcast. And you know what? I feel really bad. I don’t actually know what number podcast we’re at, but that’s all part of the fun of it all.

Today we are here with my friend Mark Trbojevic, who is from Peak Health Canberra, who is an amazing, amazing, amazing chiropractor and, as some of my friends would call him — and you’re going to hate me saying this, aren’t you? — we call him the Chiro God. He doesn’t let that go to his head though. Not at all.

Obviously, Mark’s got some amazing tips and tricks to stay healthy for running and also mental health as well. So welcome, Mark.

Mark Trbojevic: Thanks for having me. It’s good to be here.

Jess: Thank you for being here. So Mark, I know obviously we want to know a little bit more about you and what you do and where you come from. I know that you were a sprinter growing up. So tell us a bit about that. What was your favourite distance? We need PBs because we’re runners, let’s be real.

Mark: So yeah, I was a sprinter growing up. I did Little A’s up on the Northern Beaches. I started under eights, and then I went away and did a few other sports and came back in under 12s. From there, I was running for the next 10 or 15 years or so.

I did 100s, 200s and 400s. I also, during Little A’s, did long jump and that sort of stuff. But my main focus was the 400 metres. I did 200s and 100s as well, just to balance it out with the 400s. In terms of the 400, I was competing at a state and national level. For the 200 and 100, I was more a state-level runner.

In terms of PBs, it’s always the fun stuff.

Jess: We like stats.

Mark: Yeah. So I was under 11 seconds for 100 metres. I couldn’t get under the 10 like Usain Bolt. He’s a machine. In terms of 400s, I was in the high 47s.

Jess: Ooh. I watched a friend’s son race 400 just a couple of weeks ago. It’s insane. You guys are full gas for 47 seconds. He clocked in at about 47 seconds for that one as well. I was impressed.

Mark: Yeah. The last 100, you’re just holding on for dear life, hoping for the best. The amount of times at training I’d be in the gutter vomiting after training, just trying to get through it all.

Jess: Bloody hell. That’s crazy. I sit there because the amount of times that I’ve said about sprinters, “Oh yeah, run 400 metres and you’re exhausted at the end of it. That’s cute.” But you can see it. Obviously being a distance person myself, we go for a lot longer, a lot slower, and it’s a very, very different feeling.

Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Completely different energy system. With long-distance running, it’s mainly aerobic, whereas it’s lactic threshold when you’re doing that sprinting, particularly over 10 seconds.

For 10 seconds, you can get through it easily. But as soon as you get that lactic threshold, that’s when it hurts.

Jess: Oh my goodness, that’s crazy. Did you find when you were running, and when you were at the more national level, that there was a lot of assistance with mental health as well? Or was that sort of not really around?

Mark: No, not really. That wasn’t really around when I was coming through. It was more that you would learn about how to be on point on the day — strategies to perform — but not in terms of the mental health side of things. No.

Jess: Wow. A lot of, basically, “When you finish, that’s it. See you later,” kind of thing.

Mark: Yeah. A lot of sports have had that. But there’s so much more focus on that now and realising that you really have to look after people at the end of a career. Half the time, people don’t know what they’re doing now, where they’re going and stuff too.

For those elite athletes playing footy, or those sorts of sports, that’s their every day. They’re doing that every day for 10 or 15 years, and then they step away from it. What now? There’s no one telling me what to do every day. There’s no nutritionist, dieticians, strength and conditioners. It’s like, what’s next? I’m in charge now. And that’s when they start to unravel.

Jess: Yeah, that makes so much sense. It’s so good now to see that there are so many more facilities and avenues out there for people to feel good, maintain themselves and move forward, as opposed to what they were back in the — what, five years ago?

I wish. I can say that because I’m older than you.

So, what took you into chiropractic, as opposed to physio or osteopathy? Did I say that right?

Mark: You did, yeah.

Jess: Oh, yay.

Mark: It goes back to my sprinting days. I had a few issues with hamstring injuries. I was doing surf lifesaving as well, so beach sprinting and athletics. Most of my hamstring injuries happened on the beach when I was sprinting on the beach compared to track.

Jess: Damn sand.

Mark: Yeah. And there’s a reason for that, but I can go into that later if you’re interested.

In terms of injuries to the hamstring, we as a family would see chiros instead of physios growing up. Obviously, the chiro got me going again, got me back sprinting on the track and on the beach.

Unless you’re in the top few in the world in athletics, you’re not going to make a living out of it. So I was thinking, what else can I do? I enjoy health. I enjoy fitness. How can I make a difference?

I saw chiros, as I already said, so coming towards the end of school, I said, “What can I do at uni?” I looked at the course and thought, “I’ll do chiro, see how I go.” Then it just steamrolled from there. I got into uni and loved it.

Initially, I went over to Scotland and worked as a chiro there. I was there for around 18 months. Then I came to Canberra straight after, worked as an associate, then started out my own thing out of a gym. We’ve been open in Farrer for about two and a half years now.

Jess: Yeah, that’s cool. Why Canberra?

Mark: That’s because my wife — when I was living in Scotland, she already had her work set up in Canberra. I didn’t have any work or anything lined up, so I said, “I’ll come down to Canberra and go from there.” I’ve been here for coming up to 10 years now.

Jess: Oh my goodness. It’s almost like — what is it called when you’ve been working somewhere for 10 years and you get your long service leave?

Mark: Yeah. Canberra long service leave. That’d be good.

Jess: Exactly. I think the practice would almost fall apart without you there. I know Caitlin is amazing as well.

Mark: She’ll keep it going.

Jess: She’s incredible.

There are obviously so many people who do have a fear, I would say, of chiropractors. They think they’re going to go in there and they’re going to get their neck cracked, and they’re going to get that cracked and stuff. Can you dispel that a little bit?

Mark: Yep. In terms of what we do, for our initial consultation, we do an hour-long consult. The focus is really on assessment. Obviously, history is key, and then we get into examination.

We do a mixture of neural assessment, so looking at the parts of the brain that relate to movement. We look at full-body functional movement as well, so not just the area of concern, but how the whole body interrelates and what could be contributing to the pain that someone’s coming in with.

We also do strength testing. If there’s a runner, for example, we’ll be testing all the lower limbs — quad strength, hamstring strength, calf strength, foot intrinsic muscles.

From there, we explain what we’ve picked up and what needs working on. Then we’ll do a mixture of different things, from mobilisation and manipulation to soft tissue work and rehab exercises.

People think chiros are just going to adjust the neck. With a lot of people, I don’t even touch the neck in terms of adjustments. It just depends what’s going on with the individual. It’s very specific to each person, and what I do on one person, I’ll do something completely different to the next person.

Jess: I still remember having that first appointment when I came in and saw you. I think that first assessment is about an hour to an hour and a half.

Mark: Yeah.

Jess: And I was there for — I think I was there for longer.

Mark: I think you were.

Jess: I think I needed a lot of help because I was pretty broken. It blew me away.

Before I came in, I’d said to my husband, Rich, and he was like, “Why are you going to a chiropractor for your foot? That’s ridiculous.” And I said, “Look, it’s 10 months that this thing’s been going on for. I need to go and just throw everything at it.” I thought, why the hell not?

I went in, and I think when I left, I called him on the way home. The drive home’s only 10 or 15 minutes. I’m like, “Get on the phone, get in, see this guy.” It’ll blow you away. And he hasn’t looked back since either. He comes in to see you too when he’s in the country.

Do you find that most people come to see you initially because they have a pre-existing injury, or do you find there are some people who come in just because they want a check-up, so to speak?

Mark: For me, it’s a real mixture. Some people will have a pre-existing injury that they want to try and address. Some people just want to come in to improve their performance because I work with a lot of people in terms of the sporting side of things.

I see a lot of weightlifters as well, and some of them just want to be able to lift and move better. It’s not, “I’m coming in for this to reduce injury.” It’s, “I just want to perform better.”

That’s when we’re assessing to see how the body’s moving, checking neurological stuff, checking strength and seeing how we can make them move and function better so they can perform better on the day.

Jess: That’s good. It’s such a good mixture.

Mark: It is a nice mixture. Pain’s a whole topic, which we might get into today, but I love improving performance and making people function and move better as well.

Jess: Can you make me faster?

Mark: I’m not sure about that. You run long distance.

Jess: Damn. I can’t do that 400-metre thing. That’s not even a warm-up.

So, running-specific — with R4R being focused on running, and the majority of our people obviously running and supplementing with other sports — what do you find is one of the most common injuries that a runner will present with?

Mark: The most common ones I see for runners are probably Achilles tendinopathies or plantar fasciitis. Then you’ve got stress responses at the bone, particularly the lunatics who are running the 100 miles and the multi-day events.

Jess: Who are you talking about?

Mark: There are a few of those around.

Jess: I don’t know those people. Maybe I need to meet those people.

Mark: But that would be the most common I see for runners. Then it’s working out where the mechanical breakdown is and what’s overloading that structure, and then giving the appropriate treatment from there.

Jess: Very cool. Because every time I come in, I’ve got something different.

Mark: Even going back to you, obviously you presented with plantar fascia pain initially. I think it was on the left side?

Jess: Yeah.

Mark: And we picked up a lot of deficiencies in strength on the right-hand side. If you’ve got deficiency on the right-hand side, you’re going to be loading up that left side more. As soon as we got you stronger on that right-hand side, things improved and got better.

Jess: Oh, so much.

Mark: A lot of people will be like, “The pain’s there, let’s focus on that.” But if you’re not fixing the cause of what’s happening, you’re only going to get so far.

Jess: Yeah. I don’t think you even looked at my foot that first appointment. My foot was like, “I’m here. Hello. I’m the thing that hurts.” And you were like, “Not you. Back off. You’re later.”

Obviously, everyone realises the body is connected — the hip bone’s connected to the leg bone. That really took me a minute then. But there hasn’t been as much focus on the body-to-mind connection. I know you do a lot of that work now too. Go into that a little bit, because it’s interesting.

Mark: It’s interesting. I guess my knowledge in this area has come a lot from a guy in Melbourne named Brett Jarosz. He’s a chiro, but he’s done a lot of functional neurology stuff, and he’s big in the concussion field and space down in Melbourne.

What we’re assessing is basically how the brain is functioning. There are a variety of tests that we can do to give us an idea of whether there’s a deficiency in different parts of the brain.

A lot of the testing I do is cerebellar testing, which relates to movement. Joint proprioception is, for example, if your arm’s up here, it’s giving feedback back to your brain to say, “That’s where my joint is.” But when there’s a mix-up, sometimes the brain thinks it’s over here when it’s actually there.

So that’s cerebellar testing. We’re doing quick movements, eyes closed, eyes open, that sort of stuff.

Then there’s another part of the brain called your frontal lobe. A lot of people know that in men it probably develops later, around 25 years of age.

Jess: Twenty-five, maybe 50 for some.

Mark: What that part of the brain does is decision-making. It relates to memory as well, and sequencing of movement — what muscles are contracting to be there.

There are simple tests you can do, like making a sequence: fist, edge, flat, and doing it as quick as you can.

Jess: That was so hard. I remember doing that one once.

Mark: So that gives insight into whether that frontal lobe is working. You do it left versus right.

From there, we get into eye movements. There’s a thing called VOMS, which is different reflexive eye movements that everyone has, and we’re looking at how well they’re functioning. That gives us, again, an insight potentially into the frontal lobe.

We’ll do quick movements. For example, someone’s looking at that thumb and then the next one as quick as they can. If there’s slowness in that movement, it could relate to that frontal lobe being down. If the accuracy is off, it could be relating back to the cerebellum.

Then there are more specific parts of the brain that we’re looking at, which I won’t get into because that’s a bit complex for this.

Jess: Complex for me.

Mark: But that’s giving us an insight into how well their brain is functioning at the moment. How well is that mind-body connection going?

If, for example, you have a lot of injuries and it continually is on the left-hand side of the body — say your left shoulder, your left Achilles, your left knee — potentially they have a deficiency in that cerebellar function on that left-hand side. Even though those are the structures getting impacted, it’s not them that’s so much the issue. If we fix up what’s happening at the brain, then a lot of those functions clear up.

Jess: That is really cool. It has fascinated me because when we did the big run last year, the Trip 7, you and I were trying to high-five and I couldn’t connect. I still remember coming up and being like, “What?” Like trying to swat flies, basically. We just couldn’t connect at all. It was really bizarre.

You said exactly that — that I had cooked myself, I was in fight or flight that entire week, and I was a mess from that. Then it was just those few simple little things. I think you got me to do the months of the year backwards from September backwards. You did all this stuff to make my brain work better, gave it some meat basically, and then I could do the exercise. It blew me away how quickly the brain resets so that the body can function.

Mark: Yeah. And that’s the thing with any neural stuff. You know if you made it better straight away or you know if you made it worse. Sometimes you’re like, “Oh, that didn’t work. We need to do something else.”

For it to be that quick of a change is awesome, but you need to reinforce it. There’s no point doing it once and then saying, “Yeah, it’s good.” You need to actually work it.

The research is showing up to 20 minutes a day at a time working it. If you can do that twice a day, even better. What this is called is neuroplasticity, and that’s how the nervous system adapts. It can adapt in a good way, or it can adapt in a poor way.

In terms of reinforcing that, the research is a bit unknown in terms of how long you have to work on it. It could be days, could be weeks, could be months. Everyone’s different, and that’s why it’s important we come back and retest. How’s it looking now?

Sometimes the testing will completely change. You’re working on the left side, now we need to work on the right side, because things adapt and things change.

Jess: Oh yeah. So it strengthens up on one side and then the other side says, “No, it’s my holiday time,” so to speak. Then you have to balance it back out.

Mark: Yeah, basically.

You touched on that sympathetic state. That’s that fight or flight state.

Jess: Which pretty much everyone’s in these days. That is the world now.

Mark: Yeah. We’re all working too much, with schedules, kids, everything. We’re all stressed out of our heads.

Then the other part of the nervous system is the parasympathetic, which is that rest and digest. Because people are stressed out, they’re in that fight or flight state. What happens is your cortisol levels increase and skyrocket. That’s okay for a short period. That’s normal. For prolonged periods, that’s when issues get created.

That’s when sensitivities in the body start to come on. That’s when sicknesses can come on.

Jess: My stomach is sore all the time.

Mark: Yeah. How many people go on holidays and they get sick straight away?

Jess: Get sick straight away.

Mark: Because what happens when you go on that holiday? You de-stress, cortisol levels drop, you get sick. The body says, “Yeah, exactly.”

Some of what I need to do with a lot of people — when they’re in that sympathetic state, it’s common that people will have anxiety and that sort of stuff going on as well. With this neural stuff that we do, we can target that parasympathetic nervous system to unwind some of that anxiety and de-stress that fight or flight state.

Simple things: breathing’s a big one. I’m sure a lot of people have heard about the vagal nerve, because it seems to be the buzzword at the moment.

Jess: Is that the one where you’re doing the breathing and the nostril closing stuff?

Mark: No. So the vagal nerve goes down to the diaphragm.

Jess: Oh, okay.

Mark: If you’re doing diaphragmatic breathing, which is to stimulate the diaphragm, you actually need to breathe in through the nose. If you’re breathing through the mouth, you’re not going to stimulate the diaphragm as much.

A simple way to stimulate the vagal nerve is through diaphragm breathing. I like to use an app called Breathe. What it is, it has a little circle on it, and the circle expands out and contracts in. You’re doing diaphragmatic breathing to a timer. You’re looking at that, breathing in slowly, breathing out through the mouth slowly. That’s a nice way you can stimulate the parasympathetics.

Jess: You don’t have to do it for long either, do you? You could just take a three or four-minute break, have a cup of tea and a breathing session, and then back to it.

Mark: Yeah, exactly. Some other nice, real simple ways — you can do gargling, humming.

Jess: You’ve got a good voice to hum, don’t you?

Mark: Right now, no. But because of the vibrations that are created from that, it again stimulates that vagal nerve.

Jess: Get out. And that’s why there’s so much stuff about mouth taping at the moment. Would that be it?

Mark: Yeah. Well, that’s obviously encouraging nasal breathing, which should be encouraging that diaphragmatic breathing. So that’s why that’s become a big thing as well. Obviously you’ve got to be careful with that, because if you’re not breathing through the nose — whoops, not so good. Make sure you get advice on that one.

The other thing, going back to the eye movements earlier. Say, for example, we’re assessing eye movements up and down, and then we’ve got eye movements side to side. When your movements are going up and down, you’re stimulating the fight or flight state of the nervous system. Any ones that are across, you’re stimulating that rest and digest, parasympathetic part of your nervous system.

Someone that’s in that anxiety state, for example, we’re not going to be stimulating that up and down. We want to go side to side.

Think about someone who’s at an office all day, sitting at a computer. What are they doing? Scrolling up and down on our phones.

Jess: Up and down. Well, unless people are on a dating app, they’re scrolling left or right.

Mark: There could be a few of those as well.

Jess: Yeah, they should be scrolling up. Get out of it.

Mark: Well, at least they’re getting in that parasympathetic state.

Jess: Maybe that’s why they feel so calm about getting in contact with people.

Mark: But yeah, we’re on it all day. We’re not just stressed with schedules. We’re looking at computers. We’re looking at phones. All of that is contributing to putting us in that fight or flight state as well.

Jess: We’re not giving our brains a rest. I know so often we’re on the computer all day doing emails, work things, and then the first thing we think of is, “Okay, it’s rest time now.”

Doom scrolling. And again, like you said, it’s up and down. So you’re not giving your brain any break at all. But what does that give us?

Mark: Dopamine hit.

Jess: Dopamine.

Mark: We want to get on that because it makes you feel better, because you’re getting the dopamine hit. Even though you’re dead, you’re just scrolling up and down. It’s giving a dopamine hit.

Jess: That is true. But as we know, we can get dopamine hits in many different ways.

Mark: So many different ways.

Jess: Running.

Mark: Run through. Exactly.

Jess: Community exercising. Just going around the block, even if you need to have a complete break and that means no communication with people — just five minutes, just go around the block.

Mark: Yeah. And going back to what I do, there are a lot of people who come in with chronic pain. Chronic pain leads to them not doing much. They’re not walking, they’re not running, they’re not doing any of this. They’re in pain, injured, and a big thing is breaking that cycle.

When they’re in that pain, they lose motivation. They don’t want to do things, then they withdraw socially. A lot of people I see in that chronic state get in more of a depressive state as well.

Jess: It’s such a downward spiral, isn’t it?

Mark: Exactly. Even if we can get them out walking around the block for five minutes, even if they used to do an hour run, that’s okay. We’re getting them out there moving. It’s an endorphin hit for them. It is a big spiral for people.

It was a few years ago now, but I actually had a patient who was in chronic pain. He had some cancer stuff and all this stuff going on. He actually asked me how he could end things.

Jess: Oh gosh. Far out.

Mark: Obviously I’d never had that happen to me during a session before. As health practitioners, they entrust so much in you. Obviously, I didn’t want him to do that. I reached out to the people as I should. Unfortunately, he did end up ending things. That’s what chronic pain can do to people.

That’s why Running for Resilience resonates with me so much. It’s people’s health, it’s people’s wellbeing, and trying to make the ACT suicide free is massive. I love it.

Jess: Oh, it’s so good, isn’t it? And it’s great too, having the connection with Running for Resilience and the Medicare mental health system as well now. We do have an avenue to be able to point people in the right direction.

David Smith opened up the Tuggeranong one, or helped open up the Tuggeranong one, just recently. It is so good to have something accessible for people. I think so often it has been, if you need professional services for stuff like that, you’ve got to go to Sydney. By the time Sydney’s there, it’s too late. You can’t get into places.

You really have to appreciate that the more we can expand in the ACT, the better.

Mark: We had a friend a few years ago who had mental health issues, and he was trying to get that looked after and addressed in Canberra, and he didn’t get the help that he needed. He’s no longer with us. I think that’s sad, that just because we don’t have the facilities for people to be able to go there and get looked after, we’re losing people as a result of that.

Jess: It’s too common a story now, isn’t it? At least the ACT, for mental health and suicide rates, has dropped dramatically as opposed to a lot of other states now. Obviously, we like to say that we’re a part of that, but I think Canberra having communities, and being a much more tight-knit community, tends to assist in that regard. Then obviously having all these systems coming into place is really making a difference, which is great.

Mark: Yeah. And people need to be aware of it as well. The Medicare plans — I think you can get up to 12 visits in terms of mental health from Medicare, and to see a psychologist and get a bit of a rebate to help you actually afford to be able to see a psychologist.

Being able to afford it is a big thing for people as well. They’re like, “I can’t afford it. I need to be able to feed my family.” But if they can get a rebate and get the help that they’re after, it’s huge for people.

Jess: Oh, it is. It’s huge. And again, movement is medicine as well. Just taking that first step to say, “I need help.”

Mark: Yeah. Or someone noticing it.

Jess: Yeah. Very important.

Mark: As you just said, movement is medicine. If people are struggling to move, how can they move? What can we get them to do? If it’s not running, can we get them walking?

There’s always something someone can do, regardless of whether they’re in pain. They need to get moving.

All pain is, is just an alarm system. Something’s going on in the body. When you’re in that fight or flight state, it’s at a heightened sense. Pain that’s usually, “Oh, it’s not too bad, I can deal with that,” is no longer, “I can deal with that.” It’s, “I can’t deal with this anymore.”

It’s a crisis for the body. A lot of what we do with chronic pain is just trying to dampen those signals down. How can we break that cycle to go, “Okay, thanks body, but I’m actually okay. I know there’s pain there, but I’m not causing any damage. I’m not causing any issues for the body. We just need to dampen things down and unwind things.”

Jess: Yeah, that’s true. So speaking of pain, because we’re on that subject now, men or women, who’s worse?

Mark: Men, 100%.

Jess: Yes, that’s why they don’t give birth.

Mark: That is true.

Jess: I always laugh because obviously Rich’s pain face is quite epic. That’s just between us.

With chiropractic, someone will come in to you and they’ll have a session with you, or with Caitlin or anyone else. Homework?

Mark: Homework. Yeah, we always give homework. Particularly the neural stuff that I was talking about earlier. If you don’t work on it, it’s not going to improve.

We can guide you in terms of what to do and how to do it, but if you don’t work on it, it’s not going to change. Same with the strength stuff. A lot of the strength stuff, in terms of me, I target the nervous system at the same time.

For example, I utilise isometrics quite a bit, which is where the muscle’s contracting but not moving. What that’s doing is stimulating the cerebellum. It’s giving you joint awareness and joint feedback. If you’re not doing those exercises, you’re not going to get that feedback.

So if I give you something, I’ll say, “Let’s not just make sure you do it. Let’s show you that it works.” I’ll do something and go, “Okay, let’s see if we made it better. Let’s see if that neuro test has changed.” That gives the buy-in and the motivation to go, “Oh, that made a difference. Let’s actually do it.”

Jess: And then there are people who fail.

Mark: And then there are people that don’t do it regardless.

Jess: I try, but I definitely don’t get an A on my report card, do I?

Mark: That’s the thing. We’re still always going to get change, but if people put in the effort, they’re going to get even more of a change and make them feel even better and perform better.

It’s up to the individual. If they want to get better, they’ll work on it.

Jess: I’ll do better. Well, I’ll try and do better anyway. Let’s be real.

All right, quickfire. What’s your favourite shoe?

Mark: Favourite shoe? In what regard?

Jess: Running. What are we here for?

Mark: I don’t have a specific one, but Hoka in terms of brands.

Jess: Cool. Why?

Mark: They just feel comfy. And the wider toe box at the front as well.

Jess: Oh, I love a wide toe box.

Mark: Yeah. Who wants a narrow toe box, jamming your toes in? Feet aren’t shaped like that. That’s why everyone gets calluses on the outside of the big toe.

Jess: Yeah, that’s true. And that’s why it keeps you in business as well. Thank you, Asics. I didn’t say that out loud.

If you could go to dinner with anyone in the world, dead or alive — if they’re dead, they’re not in the world anymore, but who would it be?

Mark: Usain Bolt.

Jess: Oh, that would be cool.

Mark: Just for his personality, but also to see what he did to become the fastest person in the world. The training he put in, everything growing up. That’d be cool to listen to.

Jess: That’d be really cool. It would be cool to hear about his mental strength. That would be really, really fascinating.

Mark: Yeah, that’s huge. How many times did he win gold at the Olympics, to be able to back that up again and again? World records.

Jess: Yeah, that would be really cool. So what’s next for you?

Mark: In terms of business and stuff?

Currently, I’m studying a Master of Strength and Conditioning through ECU. I’m nearly done with that. I should be done mid next year. That’s been a four-year slog, just because I’ve been doing it part-time.

Then obviously we’ve got the business down at Farrer. Currently we have two chiros, a remedial massage therapist and exercise physiologists. I’d love to get a physio on board in the clinic, and another massage therapist, and have a really nice team going forward.

Hopefully in the next few years we can expand our space and have a bigger gym space, do things like Pilates classes and have classes for the exercise physiologists. It would be nice just to have that bigger space in order to do that.

Jess: Do you think expansion, as in not out of Farrer? Would that be something you’d be interested in?

Mark: Yeah, potentially in the future. We’re loving the Farrer community at the moment, but yeah, potentially.

Jess: Especially because you’ve got the cafes there, which is great.

Mark: They bring a good vibe to the place as well.

Jess: Oh, they so do.

When are we going to see you at R4R? I know it’s a very long, long, long way for you.

Mark: It is a very long way.

Jess: But you did do 15Ks in one day at Trip 7 as well.

Mark: Yeah, I did 14Ks and about 24Ks the other day.

Jess: Yeah. It’s on Wednesdays.

Mark: I have to block out a time at work so I can get there for 6pm. Otherwise, I’m working until 6pm.

Jess: It is a party, so you do need to come along. It is well worth it.

Mark: I might have to walk it.

Jess: You can do whatever you need to. You could do 400-metre sprints.

Mark: No, no. I don’t want to vomit.

Jess: We don’t want you to do that either.

Well, thank you, Mark. Thank you so much for coming in and chatting. It has been enlightening.

Mark: Hopefully people get something out of it. Even if it’s just one person that it helps, that’s awesome. But hopefully a few more will get something out of it as well.

Jess: Very good. One more thing I just thought of. What is one thing that every person who’s running semi-longer distances should do? Is there one specific exercise you would recommend everybody should do?

Mark: That everybody should do? What are you running on?

Jess: The road.

Mark: Feet.

Jess: Feet. Oh, those things.

Mark: I go straight to road.

I’d be checking people’s foot function, particularly even simple toe isolation. Being able to separate your toes, lift up your big toe by itself, lift up the rest of the toes by themselves. Simple exercise, up and down, checking that out and seeing if you can do it.

As I was saying with the toe box, if they’re jamming in, a lot of people’s toe function actually gets lost, and that motor control, that connection gets lost as well.

And calf raises. Who doesn’t love a calf raise for runners? We did a test with you — endurance calf raises. If you can’t get 20 calf raises, how are you going to run 150Ks?

Jess: Mental is a big thing.

Mark: Yeah, it’s true. It’s all connected.

Jess: It is all connected.

Mark: That would probably be the two things.

Jess: Okay, cool. That’s cool. Obviously, if anyone wants to come and see Mark — Mark’s quite busy — come down to Peak Health or give Peak Health a call, or check out their website, and get on in.

Mark: We’ll be happy to help out.

Jess: Awesome. Thanks, Mark, so much. I’ll see you — I think it’s next week? I’ve got an appointment.

Mark: Couple of weeks before the marathon.

Jess: The things we do.

In this episode of The R4R Podcast, Benny A and Breeny sit down to have their weekly R4R chat on air. There's so much happening at the moment and we thought it would be a great idea to pull the curtain back on some of the conversations behind the scenes.

In this episode of The R4R Podcast, Murray sits down with Singh and Tiff to talk all things R4R and Bravery Trek.

These guys are awesome and they're a huge part of our community... but the work they do with Bravery Trek is immense.

Find out more about Bravery Trek.

In this episode of The R4R Podcast, R4R legend and host of the Peak 2 Soon Podcast, Brent Ford interviews Kim Elms.

Kim kickstarted a social movement, calling for more attention on Women's Safety, after numerous harassment incidents on Canberra's Running Trails. But this is only scratching the surface. Kim's story is a fascinating one, and we can't recommend listening enough.

Check out the solidarity run and listen to more of Fordy on the Peak2Soon Podcast

With an introduction from R4R Legend and previous guest on the R4R Podcast (Lili Mooney), Running for Resilience held a community forum on the Mental Health Crisis facing Canberra and surrounding communities.

Hosted by Thomas Emerson MLA and Chair of the Assembly’s Social Policy Committee (currently leading an inquiry into men’s suicide in Canberra), the panel included Ben Alexander from Running for Resilience, Carrie-Ann Leeson from Lifeline Canberra, and Ben Gathercole from Menslink.

From the acclaimed "The Blood Run", Callan Gates sits down with R4R Legends Shooter and Jess, to talk all things R4R, Blood Run, and community. Our partnership with these guys was unexpected, but it's proving tot be unforgettable. In 2022, Callan Gates sets out on an extraordinary 250 km journey, a testament to endurance and dedication. He tackles the Great North Walk to support leukaemia research, raising funds and awareness for a cause close to his heart."

How to watch "The Blood Run"

• SBS: https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-pr...

• Kayo: https://kayosports.com.au/shows/show-...

• Binge: https://binge.com.au/shows/show-the-b...

Chapters

• 00:00 – Intro

• 03:13 – How did R4R really start and grow?

• 06:32 – What’s the connection between The Dock and R4R?

• 10:27 – Consistency and community

• 13:46 – Authenticity of the people involved with The Dock and R4R

• 16:53 – Impact of cancer on the family

• 19:00 – Movie night at the pub for a good cause

• 21:54 – Is there a highlight for R4R and The Dock?

• 31:17 – Vertical 5K challenge

• 42:57 – How was the camaraderie during the 5K vertical challenge?

• 46:03 – Doing hard things because our lives are easy

• 50:15 – 7 R4R meet-up times a week

• 51:32 – Where does R4R end up?

• 53:32 – Outro and thanking the guests Jess Peil and Glen “Shooter” Collins

If you or someone you know is struggling, you’re not alone — support is always available:

📞 Medicare Mental Health Centre Canberra - 1800 595 212

📞 Lifeline – 13 11 14 (24/7 crisis support)

📞 Beyond Blue – 1300 22 4636 or https:www.beyondblue.org.au

Matt sits down with Jess Peil for a conversation about all of her community work with Bravehearts, Menslink, Running for Resilience, and why she does it. We also hear about her running adventures and who she'd like to interview most. This podcast is an offshoot of the Running for Resilience community — and part of our goal to help make Canberra suicide-free by 2033. Whether you’re here to listen, learn, or just feel a little less alone — we’re glad you’re here.

👇 Chapters

• 00:00 – Intro of Jess Peil

• 01:05 – What does Jess Peil do

• 03:30 – Jess talks about why she raises money for awareness on child abuse

• 04:34 – Jess shares the first time she talked about child abuse with her mother

• 07:45 – Fighting for Bravehearts to be advertised

• 08:38 – 1 in 4 children are affected by child abuse

• 09:12 – Jess finding purpose through Bravehearts

• 10:14 – What are the people Jess meets through Bravehearts like

• 11:32 – What was Jess’s personal experience like

• 12:55 – 96% of abusers are known by the family

• 14:05 – Why Jess also supports Men’s Link alongside Bravehearts

• 15:58 – What did Jess see in R4R

• 17:36 – Why do you think so many people show up for R4R

• 19:50 – Jess talks about the Blood Run

• 21:07 – What is Elevate

• 22:22 – Do you see the benefit of community exercise

• 23:38 – Giving kids every opportunity

• 26:33 – 7 marathons in 7 days

• 32:10 – What impact does the money raised have on Bravehearts

• 33:35 – Looking for red flags in people

• 35:08 – Looking after the cracks as things grow

• 35:53 – Where to look if you need to talk to someone when you are being abused

• 37:03 – What are the signs to look for in someone who has experienced child abuse

• 39:29 – What are the similarities in the communities Jess is involved in

• 41:35 – Where would Jess like to see R4R go

• 43:22 – If Jess were to host, who would she get on

• 45:17 – 7 marathons, 7 days, 7 continents

• 46:30 – Southern Lakes Ultra

• 47:33 – How can people support Bravehearts

• 48:21 – Outro

💜 Donate to Bravehearts: https://fundraise.bravehearts.org.au/

Matt sits down with Lili Mooney for an eye opening conversation about her struggle with eating disorders, the support she had from family, and ultimately, her resilience and overcoming. This podcast is an offshoot of the Running for Resilience community — and part of our goal to help make Canberra suicide-free by 2033. Whether you’re here to listen, learn, or just feel a little less alone — we’re glad you’re here

👇 Chapters

• 00:00 – Intro

• 00:48 – Introduction of Lili Mooney

• 01:30 – Lili opens up about her eating disorder and why she shared her story

• 06:00 – Did Lili feel like she was the only one going through anorexia at such a young age?

• 07:22 – When did Lili realise she had an eating disorder?

• 10:35 – What’s different now compared to when she was diagnosed with anorexia?

• 12:24 – Sometimes humour helps in reflection

• 13:28 – Lili reflects on her time in the paediatric ward

• 16:44 – How long was Lili in specialised care?

• 17:17 – Lili reflects on her state of mind during her time in care

• 18:39 – Lili’s moment of positive mindset shift

• 22:33 – Lili’s gratitude for family support

• 24:48 – Resilience, safety nets, and when she first felt “normal”

• 26:54 – You’re not you when you’re hungry

• 28:25 – What would you say to your past self?

• 30:10 – Understanding empathy through others’ struggles 31:52 – Anorexia is like an addiction

• 32:43 – How has it made Lili a better person?

• 34:23 – Batemans Bay Half Marathon winner

• 37:08 – When Lili started to run again – 5k Lifeline run

• 38:32 – Calling Lifeline

• 42:55 – Lili’s involvement in R4R – how did she find it?

• 45:42 – What would Lili tell someone going through the same thing she did?

• 48:06 – “You can do it – just need to keep fighting”

• 49:45 – Outro